Bootstrappers guide to being successful.

Mist · May 6, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Have good qualifications. Go to the right schools, get the right test scores. These make it easy.

This is bullshit. For instance, anyone in the current startup world right now will tell you that having a goodstoryto tell investors is way more important than having qualifications or even a viable product.

You know what's another word for story? Bullshit.

They'll also tell you that "don't fail at things" is bullshit. Failure largely happens outside of your control. What IS in your control is putting yourself in a position for success to happen, and that DOES require work.

Aren't you a fucking lawyer? The one last true bastion of fratboy/bullshitter culture?

You are way downplaying the role of being a good bullshitter. I know what few big successes I've had in my life were by bullshitting people into thinking I know more than I do, and then working hard to make up the difference, and I know plenty of people in the same boat in many different fields.

Vitality · May 6, 2015

This thread needs diapers.

Vitality · May 6, 2015

Cad · May 6, 2015

Mist_sl said:
This is bullshit. For instance, anyone in the current startup world right now will tell you that having a goodstoryto tell investors is way more important than having qualifications or even a viable product.

You know what's another word for story? Bullshit.

They'll also tell you that "don't fail at things" is bullshit. Failure largely happens outside of your control. What IS in your control is putting yourself in a position for success to happen, and that DOES require work.

Aren't you a fucking lawyer? The one last true bastion of fratboy/bullshitter culture?

The startup culture is a tiny microcosm of the larger world.

And look, I've worked for startups. Have you? Qualifications are just as important to those guys, but sometimes you take what you can get because you're paying sweat equity.

And I think you're watching too much silicon valley if you think investors actually buy a "good story." Aside from the notable counter-examples that make the news where some startup with no revenue and no plans for revenue gets valued at 12 trillion dollars, when you meet with PE guys they want a business plan, a timetable for recouping their investment, and they want concrete ways thats going to happen. I have actually sat in those fucking meetings while you watched a comedy about it on TV, bitch.

And yes I am a lawyer, and you know what matters the absolute most to your law career? The ranking of the fucking school you went to, your class rank within that school, and who you know at various firms that can get you in front of the recruiting committee. In other words, qualifications, and connections. For the most part, any fucking monkey could do most of the work we do. I won't act like it requires some huge intellect. Once you are a lawyer, the most important qualification you have is GETTING CLIENTS. How do you get clients? Qualifications, and being social. You have to get in front of these guys.

Actually succeeding at your cases? Secondary. Look at David Boies, he's lost every big case he's been on but he's probably a fucking billionaire now. His firm gets business (and we co-counsel with them all the time, I've met the man) because of his name and his ability to draw clients based on being social.

Get the fuck out of the house and get a real job Mist. You have no idea how the world works.

Mist · May 6, 2015

Cad_sl said:
The ranking of the fucking school you went to, your class rank within that school, and who you know at various firms that can get you in front of the recruiting committee.

So nothing about actually producing useful output, and everything to do with arbitrary rankings, arbitrary test scores and politics. Sounds more cloistered than academia if you ask me. At least in academia you have to publish things of merit, aka produce useful output.

Cad_sl said:
Actually succeeding at your cases? Secondary. Look at David Boies, he's lost every big case he's been on but he's probably a fucking billionaire now. His firm gets business (and we co-counsel with them all the time, I've met the man) because of his name and his ability to draw clients based on being social.

HAHA HOLY SHIT YOU SO YOU JUST ADMIT THAT ITS ABOUT BULLSHITTING AND POLITICS INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY BEING GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO.

Holy shit, you just destroyed yourself, thank you SO much. Now I don't have to post in this thread anymore because I already won it with your help.

Cad · May 6, 2015

Mist_sl said:
So nothing about actually producing useful output, and everything to do with arbitrary rankings, arbitrary test scores and politics. Sounds more cloistered than academia if you ask me. At least in academia you have to publish things of merit, aka produce useful output.

Nothing about the rankings is arbitrary, nor are the test scores.

Mist_sl said:
HAHA HOLY SHIT YOU SO YOU JUST ADMIT THAT ITS ABOUT BULLSHITTING AND POLITICS INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY BEING GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO.

Holy shit, you just destroyed yourself, thank you SO much. Now I don't have to post in this thread anymore because I already won it with your help.

no, dumb bitch. He did a great job for his clients. Still lost the case. So "succeeding" in that case didn't matter. He actually has a history of failure. But the cases were well known enough that he got a reputation for taking big cases and doing a great job with them.

Why am I not surprised your stupid ass missed the point.

wormie · May 6, 2015

Can we not Mist up this thread. Plenty of worthless threads out there, shit up those. This one can be about education which is more important than some dykes views on reality.

Tuco · May 6, 2015

I feel like there was an element to luck with landing my first software job. Maybe if I messed up a few questions I wouldn't have gotten it. Maybe if they would've reached more people someone better would've been hired in my stead...

But I would've never got the job if I didn't work for my qualifications. And I was hired after not getting an offer at many places previously (being a laid off automotive engineer in 2008 when ford stock was trading at $3 was a bad time).

Mist · May 6, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Nothing about the rankings is arbitrary, nor are the test scores.

no, dumb bitch. He did a great job for his clients. Still lost the case. So "succeeding" in that case didn't matter. He actually has a history of failure. But the cases were well known enough that he got a reputation for taking big cases and doing a great job with them.

Why am I not surprised your stupid ass missed the point.

Great job for the client like losing their money? Is that the same great job Goldman Sachs does for their clients, when the lose their money then make bets against their own clients with their own money?

It's hilarious that your example of meritocracy is actually about someone who's rich despite being a fucking loser.

Cad · May 6, 2015

Only in Mist's world is a guy hired for millions to argue in front of the supreme court and running one of the most profitable law firms in the world a "loser".

Might explain her situation, actually. It's no wonder she doesn't understand how to be successful.

The Ancient_sl · May 6, 2015

Only in Cad's world would someone would it be inappropriate to define someone who loses repeatedly as a loser.

I don't even need to get into the circular reasoning behind attacking Mist's argument about merit != monetary success by citing monetary success as an indicator of merit.

Cad · May 6, 2015

The Ancient_sl said:
Only in Cad's world would someone would it be inappropriate to define someone who loses repeatedly as a loser.

Haha fair enough, but it's just been the "big name" cases he's lost. He's surely won a shit ton also. But the cases he's famous for, he was on the losing side.

DoJ v. Microsoft, Napster, Bush v. Gore.

Borzak · May 6, 2015

Talk to people who are older than you and have suceeded in your chosen business/industry.
Learn to talk to people who are odler than you comfortably.

I would say this is a huge stumbling block for a lot of people. There are a lot of older people in my industry who have "made it" and a lot of people who are younger who won't even converse with them and they really hold the key to getting ahead.

I literally bought the comany I owned for pennies on the dollar because the gentlemen that owned it didn't want to see it go to a bunch of "young punks" in his own words and all it took was talking to the guy on an equal basis like one of the guys, which he was.

IT may be an entirely different industy different than my own. I would say I've been sucessful and started with not a lot. Went to work doing manual labor with a GED working 16 hour days doing turnarounds, but had a background doing design/drafting/detailing (making shop drawings) from my dad in high school and conntinued to do that part time contract and saved up enough to go to college debt free and wound up with a masters degree in something not related to my industry.

Got out worked for one year for a company and the owner sold it to me for pennies on the dollar. Ran it for 10 years. Sold it. Worked for a few years as a desinger and now am VP of engineering in a $400 million/year business.

The biggest deal was talk to people 20-40 years older than I was in a normal conversation which seems to be a stumbling block for some. May not apply to a lot of industries.

A big help along the way was that you couldn't find but a few people who did what I did and only a handful even today on web job related sites. Of those only a small fraction wanted to do anything other than draw/design and had no desire to move into management. Very different than say hiring an IT person where you might get tons of applicants.

chaos · May 6, 2015

Dwindling number of opportunities? Mist you are smoking crack. There are more opportunities now than ever. I saw West Texas during the oil downturn/outsourcing of the 80s, THAT was a lack of opportunity. The tech sector needs qualified people so desperately they have to import them from overseas and sponsor them.

The problem I have now, and really the only thing holding me back in this industry, is that I'm not really that social. I am a grown ass man but still find myself feeling awkward or whatever. Guy I work with is dumb as a post but he is really nice and knows how to talk to people, that makes me jealous, i wish I could just walk into a room full of strangers and do that, but I can't. At leas, I haven't. I am forcing myself to do it more and more now because it is way past time.

Phazael · May 6, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Only in Mist's world is a guy hired for millions to argue in front of the supreme court and running one of the most profitable law firms in the world a "loser".

Might explain her situation, actually. It's no wonder she doesn't understand how to be successful.

The next time you guys joke about making her a Mod, I want everyone to remember this thread.

Vitality · May 6, 2015

I like what Borzak and Chaos are getting at with personability as a form of success.

It is also a form of what mist was getting at about bullshitting - in a figurative sense.

Has to be backed by actually knowing what you're talking about though.

Borzak · May 6, 2015

chaos_sl said:
Dwindling number of opportunities? Mist you are smoking crack. There are more opportunities now than ever. I saw West Texas during the oil downturn/outsourcing of the 80s, THAT was a lack of opportunity. The tech sector needs qualified people so desperately they have to import them from overseas and sponsor them.

The problem I have now, and really the only thing holding me back in this industry, is that I'm not really that social. I am a grown ass man but still find myself feeling awkward or whatever. Guy I work with is dumb as a post but he is really nice and knows how to talk to people, that makes me jealous, i wish I could just walk into a room full of strangers and do that, but I can't. At leas, I haven't. I am forcing myself to do it more and more now because it is way past time.

Funny you mention west Texas in the early 80's. My dad went thru it in the petro chemical industry as well and it served as a constant motivator to diversify and learn more than just doing X which seems to be a problem with a lot of people I have had to hire. Expand a little.

It was bad back then. I knew process and chemical engineers when I was young that were very GLAD to get a job sacking groceries at Winn Dixie back when unemployment lasted a month or two at most and paid a fraction of what it does now.

I know lots of detailers (people who make shop drawings from engineering/design drawings) that have never set foot in a shop or the field. They do OK but the big money has been in knowning the problems and seeing from start to finish what you are actually drawing. It's been a HUGE advantage for me.

Now that they have gone to 3D modeling there's been a large influx of IT types who have no clue what a beam looks like in the shop and what is required for the guy to actually fit it or erect it in the field and their drawings SUCK.

It wouldn't take an hour a week to go out to the shop and talk to the guys and find out what works and what doesn't. But a lot don't.

In a lot of ways this applies to engineers as well. They may be great at running numbers but have no real life experience in the shop/field to back it up. Now that I run the engineering department it really stands out. I have to lend my real world experience to them...and I have a GED and a degree in forest/wildlife management. Sad kinda.

hodj · May 6, 2015

The club tie, the firm handshake, a certain look in the eye and an easy smile....

chaos · May 6, 2015

Vitality_sl said:
I like what Borzak and Chaos are getting at with personability as a form of success.

It is also a form of what mist was getting at about bullshitting - in a figurative sense.

Has to be backed by actually knowing what you're talking about though.

1000% yes. If you can't sell yourself it doesn't matter how qualified you are, there is a ceiling.

Cad · May 6, 2015

chaos_sl said:
The problem I have now, and really the only thing holding me back in this industry, is that I'm not really that social. I am a grown ass man but still find myself feeling awkward or whatever. Guy I work with is dumb as a post but he is really nice and knows how to talk to people, that makes me jealous, i wish I could just walk into a room full of strangers and do that, but I can't. At leas, I haven't. I am forcing myself to do it more and more now because it is way past time.

You can, and it's literally no different than when you were in junior high and you were scared to talk to girls. Once you actually talk to one, you're like, whats the big deal? At social events particularly, people are there to meet and talk to people. You are one of those people. Just go up and say hi, ask what they do (basically why are they there) and go from there. Spend 5 minutes getting the lay of the land of who they are, give your elevator speech of who you are and what you do, give a card if its that kind of event, and say good to meet you shake hand, go to next group/person. Groups of 2-3 people are even better because you can kill 3 birds with one stone.

Just go to an event and give it a try, guarantee no harm will come to you and you'll feel a lot less awkward about it after you do it.

Bootstrappers guide to being successful.

REEEEeyore

ＨＵＳＴＬＥ

ＨＵＳＴＬＥ

scientia potentia est

REEEEeyore

scientia potentia est

Asshat wormie

2023 Asshat Award Winner

I got Tuco'd!

REEEEeyore

scientia potentia est

shitlord

scientia potentia est

Bronze Baron of the Realm

Buzzfeed Editor

Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard

ＨＵＳＴＬＥ

Bronze Baron of the Realm

Vox Populi Jihadi

Buzzfeed Editor

scientia potentia est