Boston Marathon Explosion - Today's Topics: Public Schools
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
hodj
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Yes it is. They are buying cars, homes, they make the medium income for their nation. They also have the highest rate of savings of any developed nation. And yes, comparing any nation's growth is something that must be done over decades of time, not years or months. We don't even need to go back to the 50s. Just go back to the 80s and compare.
hodj
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So? Comparsons of per capita suicide rates against the standard population are the norm. Like if you look at military suicide rates, you look at suicides at this base, versus the rest of the military. Or suicides within the military versus the general population. Same premise. I know you understand basic statistics so yeah. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Foxconn's suicide rate is lower than the per capita rate of the nation. That's a pretty significant argument that the suicides there have been overblown by the media and by people with a vested interest in harming Foxconn, and therefore, Apple (and China).
What's relevant is whether Chinese suicide rates are high in general (they're the 7th highest in the world). The whole point about that link was just to show that shit like suicide nets (meaning you're not even allowed to kill yourself in order to escape) exist in China. For the company to have a lower suicide rate than average only makes my point stronger.
There's no way China is a effectively a slave society today because conditions are better now than it was under Mao, bro. That's logic.
lol
I'd love for you to explain the math on this one.
It's not a question of growth. Slave societies grow too. Slaves in the 1800's were much better off than slaves in 1700's. That's not an argument.
hodj
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OH man 7th highest with the world's largest population?
Derp. That's actually low. Japan has a high suicide rate. Fucking Greenland has the highest suicide rates of all. So yeah.
Strawman.
Troll harder.
TheBeagle
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I don't think Mikhail or I ever stated that they should be at US middle class living standards in 30 years. Just simply that they aren't there yet.
I really don't see how pointing out that China still exploits their labor is somehow racist or insulting. I think you should put that racist card back in the deck.
Never in a million years will a few anecdotal stories that you've heard firsthand from some Chinese immigrants be representative of the population. That's like saying some self-employed Tea Party bootstrapper with 'America Fuck Ya!' bumperstickers plastered all over his truck is representative of the American populace. Just because it's worked for him doesn't mean it has worked for some ghetto kid that was born in inner city Detroit or Baltimore.
LOL
Dude do you understand how rates work?
China has a higher suicide rate than Japan.
hodj
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Well let's see. The median income for China is 10k a year. And if you make that in China. You're in the middle class. In China. So yeah.
It is a question of growth. Its a question of people no longer having to live a life where all they do is slug around a fucking rice field for 12 hours a day. Its a question of people having access to medical care, and access to education, and they get that. Its about people being able to buy homes, and raise children in comfort and peace. They have that. Your rhetoric waters down the word slave into meaninglessness. A slave is an owned person, forced to labor with no recompense. Its all dysphemistic rhetorical attempts to equate things which are not equal in order to justify your own retarded as fuck, one trick pony bullshit world view. Fuck off with that nonsense you fucking manchild.
hodj
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Yeah that's what I"m trying to explain to you. You're an idiot who thinks a population with 1.3 billion people should be what? 50th on the global suicide rate scale?
Yeah they beat them out by .53 suicides per 100,000 while having a population of roughly 10 times their size. Derp.
It's actually 9k for a family of 3. Now how much do you need to make to be a member of that "middle class" statistic you were talking about? Sources would be good.
Except none of that precludes them from being a slave society. A slave society that underwent technological improvements could very easily have the same effects. So what?
Right. Like I said, it's not called slavery. It just obviously is.
lol
umadbro?
Also you're using dysphemistic wrong.
lol
Dude do you understand how rates work? Here's a hint: THEY'RE FUCKING PER CAPITA.
What the fuck does "a population of roughly 10 times their size" have to do with per capita (that's what that per 100,000 means) rates?
hodj
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No, Mikhail isn't implying that they "aren't there yet". He's saying that China is, for all intents and purposes, a slave colony circa the 1700s. Thats a pretty specific, and completely unsupportably retarded claim far and beyond "They aren't at US standards yet".
It is denying the Chinese people any sort of validity in their claims that their hard work and effort have led to their nation's rebounding from its sad and pathetic position in the 50s and 60s. It is essentially saying that everything they do, they only do because they work for Westerners who have colonized them. It is absolutely racist and condescending.
There will always be disaffected. There will always be the ridiculously fortunate. The majority are doing far better today than they ever have. Mikhail is not saying "Oh there's some labor problems in China". He's saying that everything they've done for the past 30 years, has been at the expense of their people, who are effectively slaves, and their population has seen no benefit from this, that in fact, they are all fooled by evil Westerners who have colonized them by proxy through the Chinese government and multinational corporations, and enslaved them in the process.
hodj
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10k a year
http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybui...useholds-debt/
And that IS the median income, you know, that's what defines middle class. If you make the median income. You're in the middle class. Got it yet?
Uh slaves can't own property. That's literally the definition of a slave. They can't own property, they ARE property. So the fact that you can be paid for your labor, and use it to buy things, that's literally the definition of not being a slave.
No, its not. Slavery is a specific thing, which this is not.
A dysphemism is when you put a negative spin on the facts to try and support a claim, and when you try to equate one thing with another thing that is negative, that is dysphemistic rhetoric. Thanks for playing.
added: back to the Chinese middle class thing. In many cases, though they make far less, the Chinese are in better financial position than US citizens, with very low debt obligations, fewer mortgages on their homes, they tend to pay for vehicles outright instead of borrowing to buy them, they save 25-50% of their annual income.
Sorry to say but from where I'm standing its the US citizens who are slaves. Slaves to debt. Slaves to credit cards and mortgage holders. That's real labor with no recompense, you pay out everything you make to mortgage interest, credit card interest, interest on the car, student loans.
Yes and per capita, China and Japan are within half a point of each other per 100k. So all arguments that there's something magically wrong with China's economy that makes it uniquely bad, or that its suicides rates are somehow outside the norm, is nonsense. Greenland is #1. Explain that shit.
Despite being much larger, and therefore with much more pressure in terms of overpopulation, and in terms of distribution of resources, China is within the average for other developed Asian nations. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand. I hear Sweden has a pretty high suicide rate. Trying to correlate China's suicide rates with its economy is a game of cherry picking the one statistic that helps you out of a wealth of statistics that show you're creating correlation where none exists.
That's the point.
I'm implying that they're like the US circa the 1700's (which was a slave society at the time).
The hard work and effort of America's slaves is a HUGE part of why America has been an economic powerhouse. A major part of why reparations aren't even on the table is that the scale of economic input created by the condition of slavery and all the economic development built on top of THAT is a figure that would probably be impossible for us to pay.
What are you talking about with "Westerners?" I'm talking about the internal economic structure of China and whether that constitutes a slave society and whether that means they're not really "developed" in a meaningful sense of the word (despite their massive size).
What is the measure of "expense?" I don't think "expense" as measured against whatever improvements there were over Maoism is at all good enough. Why not? Because it doesn't factor in opportunity costs. If the Chinese are free to choose any possible economic system, the choice of any system other than the best one (and we can get into Rawls if you want to talk about what "best" means) that is an expense, no matter how big the improvement was under the sub-optimal alternative.
1. You've confused mean and median.
2. So there are, according to you, more people in China making exactly 10k a year than there are members of whatever the definition of middle class is that you're using for America? I know that's not what you mean. There's some band that makes up that "china has a bigger middle class than America" statistic. I want you to give sources for what the bounds of the band are that were used to come up with that line and then compare that to the actual median income in China (which is not the mean income).
lol
Nevermind. I think this conversation is over.
hodj
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Yes, we realize you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
No, its not. There was this thing called the Great Depression. During it, 90% of the old wealth died off. This was 70 years after slavery ended, and all contributions from slavery to our economy ended. The reason America is an economic powerhouse, is because after WW2, we had bombed the rest of the world to smithereens, and then we loaned them money, to buy steel and other products from us, which they then used, to rebuild their societies, which they then paid interest on. This is how modern America became an economic powerhouse. By the end of the 1920s, we were basically an agrarian society again, and the Dust Bowl fucked that all up. Believe it or not, there's an entire century between the end of slavery and the end of World War 2 in which lots of things happened that didn't involve slavery.
You don't consider it because it undermines your endless crusade to spew 18th century dogma from dead social theorists everywhere you go. The Chinese people have clearly been free to choose any possible economic system, since they've gone from agrarianism to communism to capitalism and everywhere else over the past century. Nations are historical things. Taking their growth and change out of the context of their history is bad science. Cultures must be considered based on change over time, not on glimpses of fragments of time.
I know, right? I should be out finding Chinese yuppies to talk to.
Dude have you looked at the estimates for the total economic inputs created by American slavery? You're just completely wrong here. I don't know what else to say.
Calling China effectively a slave society makes me dogmatic. Got it.
hodj
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No.
Uh Chinese middle class is 300 million strong. Entire US population is 300 million.
So basically your argument now is "Well it depends on what your definition of middle class is" Yes. It does. That's a retarded argument to have though, because the colloquially accepted definition is median income
When you do this, all you've proven is you don't have an argument. What is the definition of slave Mikhail? Are we not using it? Are we using your magic definition of the word that makes the word have no meaning and every person who just has a job is a slave because you said so?