Breaking Bad

Maester Chuk_sl said:

walt is not infallible, he continually underestimated jesse and it has cost him.

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Post is not about that. Underestimating is not the same as seeing a situation for what it is. Walt's always been able to look at something, after he's had some time, and completely break it down very analytically. The only time he's ever failed at this is when it's something pressing, that doesn't allow him to think. No way the man who dissected Gustavo's plan, analyzed his own brothers attempted hit in such a cold fashion, makes a mistake or tries to "convince himself" of something that he's had 20+ years to think about. It's just not in the character, and yet people keep touting it--and that's so odd to me.

Lithose_sl said:

So, no examples of him distorting the realities of a situation though? Which is what I said.

Walter is extremely analytical in his interpretation of events. He has never shown distortion in his analysis, nor allowed emotions to bias him in said analysis. He WILL distort, and change facets in order to manipulate the situation to achieve a goal he desires--but never to "convince himself" that X or Y happened. Ever. The many, many times we've watched Walt analyze a situation, in fact, his opinion and interpretation of events is often clinical, emotionless and extremely unbiased. His plan to deal with it is where his emotions, and pride can temper things. But never within the problem itself.

In short, Walters assessments have always been 100% spot on. The problem has always been how he deals with them. So saying "in this case" he has somehow allowed his opinion of what happened to be bias, so he can convince himself of something? Is absurd, and goes against everything we've seen about the character.

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Walt is also shown to be impulsive and emotional, he is definitively NOT analytical when for instance, he kills Mike. In the case of Jesse he does not distort facts but is ready to act on limited information: there is still high quality blue meth being produced... so Jesse is cooking it... so he's in league with the Nazis. Which is pretty idiotic as an assessment given who he's talking about. The Nazis would partner up with Jesse?

And again you're discounting the most obvious and long running distortion, "I'm doing this for my family". You can argue he didnt want to admit it and fooled himself but the same could be said of what happened with Grey Matter.

khalid_sl said:

I just completely disagree.

What is the biggest example of Walt deceiving himself in the show? Clearly it is him saying he was doing it for his family when he was doing it for himself. The Grey Matter situation is very similar. Both touch strongly on his pride.

Hell, another possible situation is Walt knows deep down that he fucked himself over in that situation by leaving, but wants the world (and by proxy, us) to think that he was wronged.

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Again, that's an example of Walt's pride distorting his ACTIONS. Give me ONE example where Walt analyzed a situation or wrong incorrectly.

Dashel_sl said:

Walt is also shown to be impulsive and emotional, he is definitively NOT analytical when for instance, he kills Mike. In the case of Jesse he does not distort facts but is ready to act on limited information: there is still high quality blue meth being produced... so Jesse is cooking it... so he's in league with the Nazis. Which is pretty idiotic as an assessment given who he's talking about. The Nazis would partner up with Jesse?

And again you're discounting the most obvious and long running distortion, "I'm doing this for my family". You can argue he didnt want to admit it and fooled himself but the same could be said of what happened with Grey Matter.

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Again, you're describing actions--not looking at a situation and misconstruing it. As for killing Mike, read what I wrote about having to be impulsive, killing mike was also an ACTION--however, his impetus to kill Mike, the need to kill his men? Spot on analysis to achieve his goals. Gray Matter was years ago, again, no way he distorts something that was in his past and had years to think about.

Really, is there any you can think of? Because again, you guys are giving actions, not analysis of the situation that gives impetus to them.

Lithose_sl said:

Again, that's an example of Walt's pride distorting his ACTIONS. Give me ONE example where Walt analyzed a situation or wrong incorrectly.

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How do you know that Walt analyzed the situation and decided he was wronged? He might know deep down that he fucked up, but god forbid Walt ever admit he was wrong when it touches on his pride.

Also, sorry but the big example of him deceiving himself about a situation is the central premise of the show. The entire show is about Walt deceiving himself that he needed to cook meth to do it for his family, when he was really doing it for himself.

walt spent months isolated in a cabin thinking about dying and his plan to get money to his family was calling walt jr on the phone telling him he was going to send him 100k to his friend's scott and skyler and walt jr would be back in the money. this was a walt plan and he though walt jr would easily say, sure dad and maybe with an "i love you" at the end. how did that work out for him? walt does make mistakes, but on the other hand i still think you are right about gretchen and elliot. something did happen to push him away. something tangible. not something imaginary.

khalid_sl said:

How do you know that Walt analyzed the situation and decided he was wronged? He might know deep down that he fucked up, but god forbid Walt ever admit he was wrong when it touches on his pride.

Also, sorry but the big example of him deceiving himself about a situation is the central premise of the show. The entire show is about Walt deceiving himself that he needed to cook meth to do it for his family, when he was really doing it for himself.

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Again, that's an action. Any example of him twisting a set of events to justify something? Because in every scenario you've described, Walter looks at events, very analytically breaks them down, breaks down the problems--THEN his pride kicks in and his solution is often grandiose and ego oriented.

In your example, there are multiple scenes in Season 1 where he is doing the mathematics behind precisely how much money his family would need given his hospital bills, interest/mortgage, college tuition and other expenses. He then calculates how much he will make, given his expected life span--and finds a net negative of somewhere around 700k.

Perfect analysis, down to the penny.

THEN his pride distorts his actions, and he moves on to say he "needs" a meth empire, even though that was a huge expansion from his original analysis. But, that doesn't change the fact that his original analysis of the situation was spot on--and completely accurate.

And this holds true throughout the ENTIRE show. Not once did he ever distort an origination of the problem--not one time. So why do you guys assume THIS time, he would lie to himself and say that X happened, just to justify his actions? That's never happened in the entire show. Not once, not even close to once.

Seriously, give me one example where he twisted the reality of situation? You can give me plenty where his pride pushed his actions to an unreasonable response to the situation (Which is what his Meth cooking empire was.)...But never a break down of the reality of what a situation was. So why "this time" would he lie to himself and say X or Y happened? Walt's NEVER had a problem doing things without inflating the underlying problem, so why would he do it this time?

Nice twist that Walt finally admits he did it all for himself, then meets his end trying to ensure his family's safety.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

walt spent months isolated in a cabin thinking about dying and his plan to get money to his family was calling walt jr on the phone telling him he was going to send him 100k to his friend's scott and skyler and walt jr would be back in the money. this was a walt plan and he though walt jr would easily say, sure dad and maybe with an "i love you" at the end. how did that work out for him? walt does make mistakes, but on the other hand i still think you are right about gretchen and elliot. something did happen to push him away. something tangible. not something imaginary.

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He was crying on the phone, begging his son to listen--Why do you think Walt thought Walt Jr would "easily say sure dad"? Nothing in that scene even came close to intimating that. Walt's first lines were "Son, you have to take it, or it will all be for nothing..Please...I've done horrible things". This was BEFORE Walt Jr freaked out. Walt was completely prepared for Walt Jr to be angry.

Lithose_sl said:

Again, that's an example of Walt's pride distorting his ACTIONS. Give me ONE example where Walt analyzed a situation or wrong incorrectly.

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Walt sat and talked with Krazy8 and decided he was a trustworthy guy and was about to free him. Until he found the missing plate shard.

Walt walked into Tucos office, blew it up, and then decided Tuco was the kind of guy to do business with, even after Jesse repeatedly told him that Tuco is nuts and it will end badly.

Walt decides that Gus is going to kill him and he needs to kill Gus first, based off Gus giving Jesse an expanded role. In fact Gus just wanted Walt to keep his head down and cook, and was using Jesse as part of his elaborate cartel trap (Walt wasn't trustworthy enough to take down to Mexico anymore, after he killed 2 men). Jesse in fact made a deal with Gus that Walt must not be harmed, but even still Walt went ahead and put into play his plans to assassinate Gus. Walt really completely misread the Fring situation, he was way too busy with cartel shit but Walt kept thinking it was all about him, and in the end his own actions brought about the very war he was afraid of.

i'm sure there are more. yes, Walt is very good at pre-planning a lie, like the scenes where he rehearses his lies for Skyler. No, walt is not that great at reading other people - he understands the motivations of greed, fear and power (Lydia, Gus, Nazis) but is bad at understanding loyalty, respect, love, and honor. I believe this is one of the characteristics of a sociopath, isn't it?

it was still a miscalculation. walt thought he could convince walt jr, to take the cash when walt jr was having none of it. i am not trying to be contrarian, i agree with your basic point, but walt has made some bad calls even when he had time to think about them.

Probably everyone who has watched BB and can't remember The Ugly's name.

spronk_sl said:

Walt sat and talked with Krazy8 and decided he was a trustworthy guy and was about to free him. Until he found the missing plate shard.

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Not an example of pride changing his view of a situation. In fact, a good example of methodical analysis allowing him to correct the reality of a situation even AGAINST his wishes. He really wanted to let Crazy8 go, and wanted to believe he was a good kid caught up in a bad situation. If Walt had been more like you said, he'd have convinced himself that piece of the plate was lost and let him go. But he's not like that.

spronk_sl said:

Walt walked into Tucos office, blew it up, and then decided Tuco was the kind of guy to do business with, even after Jesse repeatedly told him that Tuco is nuts and it will end badly.

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And Walt did get Tuco to do what he wanted, right? In fact, the only problem here was Jesse ratting out Walt's location. But otherwise, Walt realized how to put Tuco in line. And again, this is Walt's reaction to the situation. Walt fully understood Tuco was dangerous. He UNDERSTOOD it, he didn't need to lie and say he wasn't--that's why he went in with a damn bomb. I'm asking you to give me an example where he lied to try and convince himself of something? It's just not in his character. He's perfectly happy overeacting without the lie.

spronk_sl said:

Walt decides that Gus is going to kill him and he needs to kill Gus first, based off Gus giving Jesse an expanded role. In fact Gus just wanted Walt to keep his head down and cook, and was using Jesse as part of his elaborate cartel trap (Walt wasn't trustworthy enough to take down to Mexico anymore, after he killed 2 men). Jesse in fact made a deal with Gus that Walt must not be harmed, but even still Walt went ahead and put into play his plans to assassinate Gus. Walt really completely misread the Fring situation, he was way too busy with cartel shit but Walt kept thinking it was all about him, and in the end his own actions brought about the very war he was afraid of.

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Did you even watch these episodes? Seriously?

Walt realized the robbery to inflate Jesse's ego was a ruse. He explained the ENTIRE plan to Jesse. Walt also realized Gale would be learning the cook so Gustavo could get rid of him, and guess what? That's what was happening, which is how Walt knew to kill Gale.

Seriously, go rewatch these episodes. There is a scene where Walt literally breaks down Gustavo's plan, complete with how he manipulated Jesse. Every event. Also, Jesse made a deal with Gustavo, and the next episode Gustavo threatened to kill Walt's whole family. Again, how did Walt "distort" the situation to justify his actions? From everything we saw here, Walt's analysis was spot on (In fact, I'd say this was really the height of his skills in that area, because of how well he predicted Gustavo's thoughts).

Edit: Man, Spronk, you seriously need to go re-watch this season again. Really, really badly. Walt literally details out Gustavo's plans, his deceptions and his actions. Literally there is a whole scene dedicated to it--and then we are shown that Walt is right. I'm not sure how you could have missed this.

You can say his actions were driven by pride. Sure. But I didn't see him distorting reality in these scenes to justify them.

spronk_sl said:

i'm sure there are more. yes, Walt is very good at pre-planning a lie, like the scenes where he rehearses his lies for Skyler. No, walt is not that great at reading other people - he understands the motivations of greed, fear and power (Lydia, Gus, Nazis) but is bad at understanding loyalty, respect, love, and honor. I believe this is one of the characteristics of a sociopath, isn't it?

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You still need to show me one.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

it was still a miscalculation. walt thought he could convince walt jr, to take the cash when walt jr was having none of it. i am not trying to be contrarian, i agree with your basic point, but walt has made some bad calls even when he had time to think about them.

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Again though, what happens, his actions---That'snotwhat we're talking about. What people in this thread have said is that most likely Walt *lied* to himself about what happened, in order to justify his actions. That's never happened in the series--ever. Even in your example, he knew Walt Jr wouldn't be receptive, he understood that--he didn't lie to himself and distort the situation in order to give him confidence. Rather he HOPED he could convince his son that he was sorry and to take the money.

See the difference? Spronk saidhe made some shit up just to justify his actions. Walt's never done anything remotely like that. WaltHAStaken actions that were wrong. WaltHASunderestimated people. Walt HAS completely blown his response out of proportion due to his pride. But Walt hasneverhad to distort the reality of a situation to convince himself of any of those things. He's very comfortable letting his pride dictate horrible reactions WITHOUT having to lie about what happened.

spronk_sl said:

next sunday is going to be brutal without walt

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Aaron Paul's face has become a canvas for every form of cut, scratch, and contusion a makeup artist ever conceived.

Tuco_sl said:

I wonder how many people think my internet name is based off of the Tuco in Breaking bad =\

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I always assumed you predated the show on the old board.

I don't think he was 100% sincere when he said he wasn't doing it for his family. There was definitely a part of him that enjoyed it, but his family was the primary reason.

He told Skylar that because he wanted her to be happy. Believing he was dying for them would make it harder on her than if was a bad guy who got what he deserved. Walt Jr is going to get $9 million on his 18th birthday and will always think it was from Gretchen and Elliot. That's the only way his family can truly be happy.

It goes back to Gus's quote:

You always have family. They will always be your priority, your responsibility. And a man, a man provides. And he does it even when he's not appreciated or respected or even loved. He simply bears up and he does it. Because he's a man.

Lithose_sl said:

You still need to show me one.

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You aren't interested in being shown one. Spronk showed several, all of which you try and weasel out into "action" instead of "analysis".

You asked Spronk if he had watched the episodes. If you don't think Walt can deceive himself based on his pride, I have to ask if YOU have been watching the show.

khalid_sl said:

Well, its a bit early to be ranking Breaking Bad in the pantheon of great shows right now.

However, I have to say that I think Breaking Bad has exceeded The Wire in managing to go out on one of the best seasons yet. The Wire was absolutely great but s5 to me wasn't that good. BB on the other hand completely nailed the final season and the finale. Consistent and incredible quality throughout.

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I have no problem going ahead and putting it in that pantheon. I to feel that it has surpassed The Wire, which was the series (or perhaps one of a small group of series/shows) by which I had come to measure almost all others. The Wire probably got off to a better initial season than Breaking Bad, but the writer's strike that year had a lot to do that. Breaking Bad never had the sort of drop off in excellence that The Wire did in it's last season. The newspaper story arc and the absurd McNulty/serial killer angle didn't do that series justice.