Breaking Bad

khalid_sl said:

Incoming Lithose to point out Walt is not warped and never deceived himself. Gilligan is a fucking dumbass who never watched his own show.

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Someone is still mad. Don't be angry man. Just read the posts you're responding to before jumping into a conversation, when I can highlight things I said--showing you didn't read, it's a bad thing.

Edit: Also, you should listen to podcasts--he said was he doesn't believe they are"bad" people or "villains"and that Walt's warped so his reaction might have been over the top. He never said they probably didn't do anything. It doesn't go against anything I said--I'm so sorry you can't see that, I've explained it very well.

Here, let me show you.

Lithose_sl said:

This is the impression I got. Walt left spur of the moment during a vacation to her families estate. They hinted heavily Gretchen came from money, lots of money. My theory has always been her father pulled Walt aside and said he would not fund the company if Walt was a part of it, because he didn't want Walt getting close to Gretchen, and then marrying her and inheriting his money--when she could have had Eliot (Who also seems to come from money.)

Essentially, Walt went to an Ivy League school, and worked with Ivy League graduates because of his brains, not his social pedigree. And when they saw him attempting to marry in, they forced him out. What burned him though is that Gray Matters success was all based on those brains. I've known three people that got into very prestigious schools on scholarship who came from middle class families--and I've actually seen something like this play out. Old money is VERY insular, and Gretchen, I think, is old money.

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So, that jives with what Gilligain was saying. Unless you think the above makes Gretchen "evil" or a "villain". Anymore comments? Maybe you should really read first.

Edit: Also, Gilligan wanted/thought a lot of stuff. But he's not the only writer, and he's said he often had the wrong insight to the character. He said he thought Skylar would have killed herself, but his writers vetoed it. He was going to have Walter stick a needle in Jesse' gf, but the writers said Walter isn't that "bad" or "dark" of a guy and wouldn't do that (Yet). Even in this last episode, he was going to have Jesse blow them both up--but the writers said it didn't fit. So he's made tons of wrong guesses about "his" characters because they aren't "his" at all, the show has a team of writers. (Look up "10 breaking bad plots you never saw"--They released a ton of ideas Gilligan threw out and were rejected.)

this is getting like the dumbledore is gay argument we had back on the old board. author says dumbledore was gay, but never shown him do anything gay in the book or movie so was he really gay? as i said back then. what is in the author's head doesnt count unless its shown or at least heavily implied in their works. i was in the "gretchen and elliot did walt dirty" team because walt IMO is not someone who makes shit up. but now the creator (gilligan) says walt is that kind of warped individual that would lose his shit over something that was essentially nothing. it doesnt matter in regards to the show but it also opens the door to what others were saying about walt.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

this is getting like the dumbledore is gay argument we had back on the old board. author says dumbledore was gay, but never shown him do anything gay in the book or movie so was he really gay? as i said back then. what is in the author's head doesnt count unless its shown or at least heavily implied in their works. i was in the "gretchen and elliot did walt dirty" team because walt IMO is not someone who makes shit up. but now the creator (gilligan) says walt is that kind of warped individual that would lose his shit over something that was essentially nothing. it doesnt matter in regards to the show but it also opens the door to what others were saying about walt.

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True and most authors will say that--that's why a lot don't comment on books, because they view them as belonging to the public. Someone else in the thread said he realized most authors simply do NOT know what happened--and that's right, especially in a collaboration.

But even with all that said, I linked my post with my theory. Nothing in my theory makes Gretchen evil or a villain. And that's what Gilligain said, he doesn't believe they are "bad" people. I hate to break this to Khal, but good people can spurn, and or greatly offend, someone else. Walt's initial offense was probably real, the level at which Walt responded? That's the lie of Walt's pride. But yeah, if my theory about Gretchen's family being dicks to Walt because he's a "lower class" peon is true, then that means Gretchen could be a very good person--and yet Walter could still seriously have been offended, and even somewhat noble with his intention to leave (So his company could flourish).

There are ways to write things that make two good characters, hurt each other in very real and meaningful ways, without making either a "bad" person. Maybe complex characters like that just aren't Khal's speed, though.

and there is also something very telling in the way that walt secured that money for walt jr. walt made sure that gretchen and elliot knew that if they did not give that money to walt jr he would have both of them assassinated even after he is dead because the mechanics have already been paid. this means that walt doesnt trust either of them. does this mean that walt thinks they are so good hearted that as soon as walt leaves they will report him and the money? does it mean that walt has a serious distrust of them because of what they may have done to him back in the past? gaah! this show is so crazy.

I seem to remember an Asimov quote where someone asked him what he meant by a particular passage of one of his books and he replies, "That's for the critics to say, not me"

Collaboration actually makes parts of the show make more sense.

Lithose, it isn't about whether or not Walt is complex. Of course Walt is a complex character. The problem is from your point of view, you are the one trying to remove that complexity. To say that he ALWAYS acts in a certain way. That he would never deceive himself about a situation.

Shit dude, you may very well be right that Gretchen "spurned" him. However, from what we know of the situation, there is just no reason to be certain of it unless we remove all complexity from Walt and turn him into some ubermensch that never deceives himself about situations. What we do know is that Walt routinely lies to himself or at least the rest of the world to get what he wants. Hell, for all we know Walt KNOWS that Gretchen never spurned him (so this fits with your superman Walt idea) but yet lies to Gretchen and others because he knows it makes them feel guilty even if they did nothing wrong.

khalid_sl said:

Lithose, it isn't about whether or not Walt is complex. Of course Walt is a complex character. The problem is from your point of view, you are the one trying to remove that complexity. To say that he ALWAYS acts in a certain way. That he would never deceive himself about a situation.

Shit dude, you may very well be right that Gretchen "spurned" him. However, from what we know of the situation, there is just no reason to be certain of it unless we remove all complexity from Walt and turn him into some ubermensch that never deceives himself about situations. What we do know is that Walt routinely lies to himself or at least the rest of the world to get what he wants. Hell, for all we know Walt KNOWS that Gretchen never spurned him (so this fits with your superman Walt idea) but yet lies to Gretchen and others because he knows it makes them feel guilty even if they did nothing wrong.

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In my original post, all I said was that we've never seen Walt do "this" (Make up a problem) to convince himself. So why do people assume that? It's far more likely something did happen, and Walt's pride carried a reaction much bigger than normal. That is the theme we've seen in the show numerous times. What we've never seen is Walt being outright delusional and making shit up so he can justify his horrendous actions. He's always been perfectly comfortable justifying extremes without altering the base problem. (The cop, for instance. Or again--the "big lie", his families finances...The need for money was real, it was. The lie came in the solution.) So it's perplexing why people would assume he would just make up some events in this case? When in the show it's always been about him accurately evaluating a problem, and then making the response completely driven by pride or ego. In other words, why would we have theories about something that hasn't even been thematic in the show (Delusional constructs), when we have something that HAS been a running theme and is in the show (Irrational, disproportionate responses).

Also, not sure why you keep saying "my superman", either--I've done at least 4 posts stating Walt's wrong a great deal (I can link them). But he's generally good about assessing a situation, even if his reactions can be bad. (I went through Spronk's list to show that Walter understood those problems, even if he misjudged the reaction.) That doesn't make him a superman, nor does anything I said..I'm honestly just confused by that. I mean, I even linked the post to you that said Walt has made lots of mistakes (Just never been delusional, or misconstrued problem origination--he's usually pretty sharp with that.)

At least he died doing what he loved.
...getting shot in the back with a ricochet from his contraption of death that was designed to murder all of the evil Nazi's.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

and there is also something very telling in the way that walt secured that money for walt jr. walt made sure that gretchen and elliot knew that if they did not give that money to walt jr he would have both of them assassinated even after he is dead because the mechanics have already been paid. this means that walt doesnt trust either of them. does this mean that walt thinks they are so good hearted that as soon as walt leaves they will report him and the money? does it mean that walt has a serious distrust of them because of what they may have done to him back in the past? gaah! this show is so crazy.

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Not sure if serious

Tuco_sl said:

SO you're telling me there's a chance?!

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It's a shame Todd wasn't alive to have sex with her corpse.

apparently skyler wasnt fat, she was battling a "mystery illness that made her gain weight."
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Nah, she was a fat, unfuckable mess.

It wasn't cortisone, it was chocolate.

yeah i think we all were thinking that. because her "mystery illness" would be heavily sought after by cancer and AIDS patients.

I'd buy that to a degree. She looked more bloated than fat. Steroids like cortisone make your body hold water and is most noticeable in the face.

Could still be bs though

Maester Chuk_sl said:

this is getting like the dumbledore is gay argument we had back on the old board. author says dumbledore was gay,but never shown him do anything gay in the book or movie so was he really gay? as i said back then. what is in the author's head doesnt count unless its shown or at least heavily implied in their works. i was in the "gretchen and elliot did walt dirty" team because walt IMO is not someone who makes shit up. but now the creator (gilligan) says walt is that kind of warped individual that would lose his shit over something that was essentially nothing. it doesnt matter in regards to the show but it also opens the door to what others were saying about walt.

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He was clearly pretty gay for Wizard Hitler.

Oh there was a gay scene? Do tell?

Maester Chuk_sl said:

Oh there was a gay scene? Do tell?

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Grimmlokk_sl said:

Spoiler

Snape blumpkins Dumbledore

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Walt's ricin is 99 percent pure. And maybe a touch beyond that.