Breaking Bad

i love walt and i hope he outsmarts hank and stays healthy so he can ride off into the sunset. i so do not want this show to end. im almost tempted to not even bother watching anymore just so i can have the memory of an incredible rise to power.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

im almost tempted to not even bother watching anymore just so i can have the memory of an incredible rise to power.

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An Astr0-free finale? Say it ain't so!

Forgetting about the Mexican Cartel? Gus averted that threat and contained it for a while -- he didn't nullify it. Even in the episode where gus had the cartel boss killed gus was very much aware that he had 1-2 years tops to basically raise an army (of american cops).

Mike was right. It takes more than killing the old boss to be the new boss. Either Hank gets Walt or the cartel does. Hank would be quite a bit more merciful.

That's kinda the whole point. It's completely a house of cards for Walt. He's way out of his depth but he's too arrogant to realize it. He couldn't even assassinate Mike properly, and he can't spend his money. His victory is of the hollow variety. It's nearly pyrrhic.

Adam12_sl said:

An Astr0-free finale? Say it ain't so!

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this is my fav show. on the old board it was just me and a few others who were fans in the first season. of course i will be watching. i just dont want to see the show end. i especially dont want it to end lame. so few iconic tv shows ever have great endings.

Iannis_sl said:

Forgetting about the Mexican Cartel? Gus averted that threat and contained it for a while -- he didn't nullify it. Even in the episode where gus had the cartel boss killed gus was very much aware that he had 1-2 years tops to basically raise an army (of american cops).

Mike was right. It takes more than killing the old boss to be the new boss. Either Hank gets Walt or the cartel does. Hank would be quite a bit more merciful.

That's kinda the whole point. It's completely a house of cards for Walt. He's way out of his depth but he's too arrogant to realize it. He couldn't even assassinate Mike properly, and he can't spend his money. His victory is of the hollow variety. It's nearly pyrrhic.

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I don't remember Gus making that point. It is probably true, even though he wiped out the cartel a new one will eventually come in and set up shop. But there is no guarantee that they will have an interest in the meth trade. Gus basically created the meth business under this cartel, they didn't give two shits about it before him.

i hope walter wins and hank dies.

chaos_sl said:

I don't remember Gus making that point. It is probably true, even though he wiped out the cartel a new one will eventually come in and set up shop. But there is no guarantee that they will have an interest in the meth trade. Gus basically created the meth business under this cartel, they didn't give two shits about it before him.

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Me neither, however reading that post it does make sense... Gus was funding the DEA not only to hide in plain sight and get police information, but to also send them against the cartels.

spronk_sl said:

there were two parts, one in season 2 (episode 6) and one in season 5 (the episode where he talks about selling his billion dollar stake in Grey Matter for $500 or so?). In the first part Gretchen says Walt abandoned her, Elliot, and Grey Matter right after the 4th of July with her family with no explanations, and Walt accuses her of cheating on him with Elliot and she is shocked and sad for Walt. In the second, season 5 one Walt tells someone (forgot who) that Gretchen's family came from old money and they insulted him for being beneath her during July 4th weekend, and in a rage he left them.

So while they could fill in some of the details, the story seems pretty obvious: Walt's insane pride perceives an insult as much bigger than it is, and he assembles a massive conspiracy against him to justify a really, really, really stupid decision - leaving Grey Matter and Gretchen. Much of his life and revenge/pride driven decisions during the show have been a reaction to that.

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Walt's pride is really massive, but off hand, I don't think he's ever sniffed out a conspiracy that wasn't true. Remember in Season 4? When Jesse was turning on Walt? Does anyone remember why? It's because Walt insulted Jesse by making him feel like he couldn't possibly be that important and that Gus was just using him to get to Walt. Here's the thing. Walt might have been a completely prick about it.But he was right. He could see Gustavo's plan ten steps ahead of where it was. He knew the whole robbery was a set up to build Jesse's ego, he knew Jesse was a pawn, he knew this and he didn't sugar coat it like most people do--instead he was very blunt and direct in his action.

I mean, have you guys ever seen Walt completely "make up a conspiracy" in the show? Typically, the dude is pretty spot on in terms of what he guesses--his problem has never been being irrational or paranoid. Rather, more often than not, he's simply too cold for the people around him to understand. He comes up with solutions that are barbaric, inhumanbutall together coldly practical. Everything up until this point in the show indicates that.

I don't think I've ever seen Walt's pride let him see something that wasn't there. His pride is responsible for a lot, most notably allowing him to think he can handle everything, but as far sniffing out problems? Walt's always been spot on. And while his solutions are horrible and evil and terrible, they are almost never "stupid". Typically they are simply inhuman, but again coldly practical, solutions to very real problems.

With that situation I thought at the time, and still do, that even though Gus was initially just using Jesse to fuck with Walt, he began to see Jesse was capable of more. I think that without Walt's dismissive ego-maniacal bullshit, that plan never would have worked out for Gus. I don't think Gus would have ever brought Jesse down to Mexico if he didn't see something in him beyond the game he was playing with Walt. He was able to control him and inspire him to actually be better at shit. This defying the stereotype he had of junkies previously. I think his real embrace of Jesse really further highlights Walt's myopic view on the relationship.

I really don't know if Gus ever would have really accepted Jesse, we'll never find out. Sure he killed Gale and instigated the thing with the dealers, but he did perform well under Mike and save everyone's ass in Mexico multiple times. It is really hard to read, for me.

chaos_sl said:

With that situation I thought at the time, and still do, that even though Gus was initially just using Jesse to fuck with Walt, he began to see Jesse was capable of more. I think that without Walt's dismissive ego-maniacal bullshit, that plan never would have worked out for Gus. I don't think Gus would have ever brought Jesse down to Mexico if he didn't see something in him beyond the game he was playing with Walt. He was able to control him and inspire him to actually be better at shit. This defying the stereotype he had of junkies previously. I think his real embrace of Jesse reall further highlights Walt's myopic view on the relationship.

I really don't know if Gus ever would have really accepted Jesse, we'll never find out. Sure he killed Gus and instigated the thing with the dealers, but he did perform well under Mike and save everyone's ass in Mexico multiple times. It is really hard to read, for me.

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Yeah, I agree with this. The above is mainly about "the start"--the nice thing about this show is things quickly blur. I wouldn't be confident enough to go one way or the other with Gus by the end, I think "the plan" did change a great deal once Jesse cleaned up and was actually valuable.

As for Walt's view of the relationship, Walt's kind of always reminded me of thinking more like an analyst, crunching some kind of game theory computation about people--rather than a real person making a connection with other people. His views are narrow because he thinks people are known quantities. And I think, as you said, it leads him to make bad judgements about people, even if his judgements about the overall problem are correct. (Like Mike and his men ect)

chaos_sl said:

I don't remember Gus making that point. It is probably true, even though he wiped out the cartel a new one will eventually come in and set up shop. But there is no guarantee that they will have an interest in the meth trade. Gus basically created the meth business under this cartel, they didn't give two shits about it before him.

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It's been a while now and I don't remember exactly. I -think- that while gus is on the phone with cartel man the cartel guy says something like, "You're insane. You know we'll be back and we'll take our vengeance" and Gus replies with something like, "Yes, but not for a year or two and by then I'll be ready."

I think those lines were in the script. At any rate, Gus had a long term plan to deal with the reassertion of the cartel into territory and trade he had decided to claim for himself.

walt was heisenberg, but as far as i know jesse was the only rep Gus sported that could make blue. after Gus, walt sold his biz after making a "trainload" of meth. he is now "retired". if the cartel is still looking for revenge, they will either find jesse or squabble with the new guys walt sold his biz to.

The cartel already knows who Heisenberg is.

Your theory is that the cartel is going to ignore a standing blood feud and let Walt live out his old age because he's "retired"?

Have we been watching the same show?

Aztec justice bro. Aztec justice.

the cartel only wanted revenge on walt for tuco. the juarez boys are dead. their uncle is dead. everyone who would have a reason for revenge on walt is now dead. the cartel wanted gus dead because he was in the way of their business, jesse was his new heisenberg. thats who they will now either try to recruit or kill. or the new guys who took over the territory.

These guys cut off faces and stick heads to exploding turtles. They'll kill Walt just because. The fact that he was hiesenberg and that he was somehow involved in the death of two of their members is all the justification they need.

That's just how the cartel is portrayed in this show. The portrayal doesn't seem to be too far off the mark. These are not your irish/italian "gangsters". This is not organized crime, this is not "a business". These guys are self-styled despots collecting tax. They don't need a reason to kill somebody beyond they want to.

Edit: I doubt the cartel really plays much of a role in the final 8 episodes, it was more of a Gus arc and an deferred threat. I'm just sayin... mexicans make good savages. Cowboys and Indians bang bag.

the juarez boys only found out where to find heisenberg through the uncle, all 3 are dead. the new cartel boss unless he is also blood related to tuco/juarez boys/uncle isnt going to give a fuck about walt,have the first clue in finding him or even know if he ever existed outside of a myth. all they got is jesse and its possible the people who saw jesse might also be dead. they certainly dont have info on him anyway.

one more edit
tortuga (trejio) was in no immediate danger from the cartels until he turned rat for the feds and then his head ended up riding a turtlebomb

yep, he was fine until he made a deal. now why the fuck would he go hanging with his cartel buddies after that is anyone's guess. maybe he was trying to get better dirt on them for more bargaining chips or something, but he should have known the cartel most likely have people in the DEA and would tell them as soon he started giving them up.

There will probably be some pissed Czechs too.