Breaking Bad

Beatrix Kiddo, Lisbeth Salander, Clarice Starling: All characters who are universally despised by men just for being strong and female.

A commenter with the third most popular comment sums it up pretty well.

Comment_sl said:

I assume the subtext of Ms. Gunn's op-ed is that our country is awash in some sort of insidious misogyny that is causing this virulent response to her portrayal of Skyler White. On the other hand, perhaps the writers of these programs are the misogynists, and are writing characters which do a disservice to women. Personally, I disagree with the view that Skyler is "too strong" of a character. If anything, I think viewers are reacting to the fact that Skyler is, in fact, weak--and a hypocrite to boot. She fails miserably to stand up to Walt. While characters like Walter White and Don Draper may be liars and worse, they do seem to live by a code of sorts and they control events, whereas characters like Skyler and Betty Draper are actually weak, seeming to react to events and gain what little power they have through ad hoc maneuvering in reaction to the more powerful male characters. Ultimately, I think it is very human for people to admire the stronger, more consistent characters and to dislike those that are viewed as weak and inconsistent. The question might be, why are female characters consistently written this way?

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People hate Skylar because the first 3 seasons to passive aggression to absurd levels. She achieves her strength through subversion fueled by outright humiliation, but ultimately is able to do nothing with it because she iscompletelyindecisive abouteverythingand lacks the conviction to follow through onanything. I don't know when writers will "get" it, but being a strong woman does not mean passive aggressively attacking men to render them impotent with a broken will (I guess relative to that one man she seems stronger?). Rather, it means you go out and perform as their equal or better than them, you get shit done and prove yourself. That is a strong female character. A perfect example is Peggy or Ripley.

The fact is,veryfew men are written the way that Gunn thinks is "strong"--because when writing men, nearly all the qualities that made Skylar up for the first three seasons are almost universally seen as aterrible. Pete Campbell, for example, is written this way. Manipulative, passive aggressive, exploiting emotional responses ect. And people openly hate him for it, because these are seen as TERRIBLE qualities, in men. But I guess in women of relatively decent moral standing (Compared to Walt), it's seen as strength? Yeah...no.

Anyway, given her other interviews, she seems smart. And it's obvious Gilligan, at least, knows how to write well enough to understand how he was using her. So I have to wonder if she is basing her opinions off the characternow, and not the first three seasons.

if skyler wasnt such a hypocrite i could at least entertain Gunn's theory that skyler is strong. if skyler was strong she would have left walt and followed through with her divorce and listened to her atty and dropped a dime on walt's meth making. but nope! she goes back with walt and commits many crimes herself. at no point does her character display strength. its always some petty little stunt to stick it to walt.

As far as I know Gunn has always said that Skylar is the hero of the story.

Basically I see it as an actors trap. In order to play this woman convincingly she has to imagine this woman. Who wants to spend that much time imagining the bland, self-serving, turbocunt that Skylar is? She has a LOT of screen time which means she's spent a lot of hours on set pretending to be some arizona housewife with a disabled son and a milquetoast husband named Skylar.

And hell, it's not like that's even a dissonance. Some of the worst people I've ever met irl (both male and female) who share traits with Skylar DO tell themselves they're "strong personalities" and through some sort of brain-magic attribute their flaws and failures to being "too strong". I don't think that Gunn is saying it with a wink like that, but I do think she is portraying that personality in a perfectly adequate (which for this, you can't get better than adequate) fashion.

It's justI don't fucking want to see that personality type, I see it often enough IRL. He tries to ground the show with Skylar's element while Walt's element gets progressively more cartoonish. It's a contrast -- but it just doesn't work. That's the entire problem with skylar. You can see exactly what he'stryingto do. And generally if you can see what the artist was trying to do it means that he failed to do it. And you can see that he's capable of doing it better. Skylar in this final little bit is finally being written for.

Edit: Totally different than Betty. I know people don't like Betty, but Betty is an obvious victim of circumstance. Betty actually is trying to be what she was taught to be and trying to fulfill what she understands to be her obligations. Betty's trying to be a good, strong woman. Her version of what that is is strange and fucked up, but you fairly can't hate Betty for what she is because Betty is innocent in a way that Skylar just isn't.

Lithose_sl said:

People hate Skylar because the first 3 seasons to passive aggression to absurd levels. She achieves her strength through subversion fueled by outright humiliation, but ultimately is able to do nothing with it because she iscompletelyindecisive abouteverythingand lacks the conviction to follow through onanything. I don't know when writers will "get" it, but being a strong woman does not mean passive aggressively attacking men to render them impotent with a broken will (I guess relative to that one man she seems stronger?). Rather, it means you go out and perform as their equal or better than them, you get shit done and prove yourself. That is a strong female character. A perfect example is Peggy or Ripley.

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Women are almost entirely covert in their communications. You should rarely pay attention to what a womansays. You pay attention to her actions. For that reason, I think Skyler is portrayed pretty accurately. Whether or not she's a "strong" woman, is irrelevant. I think she actspreciselyhow the vast majority of women would act, given a similar situation.

Aaron Paul's audition.

I'll go against the grain and say I've always viewed Skylar as a "strong woman." It's just that that isn't a characteristic that is devoid of flaws or above criticism. Skyler is strong in that she stands up to Walt and protects her family, but the way in which she accomplishes these things are often passive aggressive, irresponsible, or immoral. She is tired of all of Walt's lying, so... she commits adultery. She doesn't like Walt's involvement in the drug world, so... she launders money for him. A weak woman would be like the typical mafia wife who just ignores everything he does and goes along for the ride. Skyler is strong because she attempts to take control of the situation.

To say people hate Skyler merely because she's a "strong woman" trivializes the complexities of her character. They don't hate Skyler because she's strong, but because ofhowshe exercises that strength. When it comes down to it, I think Anna Gunn makes the same mistake about her character that her character often makes. Having strength does not automatically make you a good or moral person. The things Walt does takes strength too, after all.

I wouldn't have said "strong" I would have said "controlling." I would say strong now.

The reason people hate Skylar is that she was a harpy foil character. She was an obstruction to the protagonist that ate up screen time bitching when we only have so many minutes per week and episodes per season. Her sister, whom often shared screen time, was also an irritating harpy. I want to watch Walt do stuff. Being clawed at by a shrew is not him doing stuff.

She's way, way better now though. She's got depth and she's important to the story.

Almost got me tearing up twice this episode. I still think walt is working jesse as he said, but he also still cares deeply about him.

Did he realize there was a switcheroo with his cigs?

Yep. OH SHIT indeed

Holy shit, this show is amazing.

Goddamn. That was unexpected

That's the response I was looking for.

Oh shit.


Also:

Fuuuuuuck