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Trump's Staff
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Actually Tanoomba it makes a world of difference if the person took the drug out of their own volition for Florida it does. For cali here is the text supporting the rape charge.

4) Where a person is at the time unconscious of the nature of the act, and this is known to the accused. As used in this paragraph, "unconscious of the nature of the act" means incapable of resisting because the victim meets one of the following conditions: (A) Was unconscious or asleep. (B) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant that the act occurred.
 

Loser Araysar

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I'd hire Cad in a second. Masterful job destroying Tardnoomba.
 

Tanoomba

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Can you quote from there, the part where the girl says yes? Also she was given the drug not to have sex but for a specific medical purpose. Not for social interaction, but within the confounds of a medical care.
It is expected by any person who is going to a medical procedure that requires anesthesia, not to be raped while incapacitated.
From People v. Giardino, where this reference to People v. Ing is made:

There was apparently no evidence that the victim was unable to speak or otherwise communicate a refusal to consent; indeed, the evidence suggested that the victim actually consented to intercourse.
Again, take a look at the law before talking out of your ass:
California penal code_sl said:
261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances:
(3) Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating
or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this
condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the
accused.
Show me where it says anything about the reasonwhysaid "intoxicated or anesthetic substance" was consumed, or whether it was consumed by one's own volition. The onus is on you, son.

Also, why the fuck are you quoting the part of the law that talks about being "unconscious at the time of the act"? Sure that's rape, but that's not what we're talking about. Try again.
 

Tanoomba

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I'd hire Cad in a second. Masterful job destroying Tardnoomba.
Oh God, what a fantastic scenario... Araysar would end up behind bars for life (even if the charge was jaywalking) and Cad would be arrested for making a mockery of the law while being an insurance salesman. Thanks, Araybro, that brought a smile to my face.
 

Loser Araysar

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The best part is watching a guy who couldn't do better in life than a 3rd grade ESL teacher (isn't that like a volunteer position at that point, kinda like serving soup at a soup kitchen?) pretending to have an actual knowledge of the law other than "feels". And getting curbstomped time and time again.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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Tanotard. Pick a case and stick to it. You want to talk about go and or medical rape? Because you can't justify one with the others. On the medical rape, the victim couldn't consent because she was under the effects of anesthesia, ie not awake or not aware of what was going on, on the girl any case, the girl took her own pant down and started masturbated in front of the guy (s). For any reasonable person, I know not you, these two situations are different and the same standard can not be applied to both. One involves been unconscious because of a medical procedure, and the other involves been born while drunk.

I'm waiting for the conviction on gionardo, because u are the one who has to show your point. We have already establish, Cad linked the actual case, that you pretty much have to be passed out to not be able to give consent while drunk. The standard is that high.
 

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Trump's Staff
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The funny part is that tanotard makes fun of Cad been a bad lawyer, when Cad probably makes 5 times more than him
 

Tanoomba

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Tanotard. Pick a case and stick to it. You want to talk about go and or medical rape? Because you can't justify one with the others. On the medical rape, the victim couldn't consent because she was under the effects of anesthesia, ie not awake or not aware of what was going on, on the girl any case, the girl took her own pant down and started masturbated in front of the guy (s). For any reasonable person, I know not you, these two situations are different and the same standard can not be applied to both. One involves been unconscious because of a medical procedure, and the other involves been born while drunk.

I'm waiting for the conviction on gionardo, because u are the one who has to show your point. We have already establish, Cad linked the actual case, that you pretty much have to be passed out to not be able to give consent while drunk. The standard is that high.
WOW! Incredible. You actually still don't get it.
The patient in that case was not unconscious when the doctor fucked her. Evidence shows that she gave actual consent. She said "yes". So why was it illegal? Because her mental capabilities were severely hampered by the drugs administered to her. This is the exact same law that applies if someone tries to fuck a person who is so far drunk that he/she is not in control of his/her mental faculties. It doesn't matter if the drug is anesthesia or alcohol. It doesn't matter if the drug was administered by a doctor or consumed for fun at a party. There are 2 things that matter:
1) Was the person so far gone they were incapable of sound judgment?
2) Was the other person reasonably aware of this state?
If the answer to both is "yes", then we've got a rape here! According tothe law, not my "feels"!

I repeat: It doesn't matter whether the case I linked to described an actual rape. IT DOESN'T MATTER. The analysis of the case stated extremely clearly and multiple times that giving "actual consent" can still count as rape if the person was unable to give legal consent. THAT'S MY POINT. Even Cad has admitted this is true. What are you trying to argue here, man?

Let me put it this way: Is it illegal to shove a feather duster down someone's throat, cutting off their air supply until they suffocate? Of course it is! Can you find a case where someone was convicted of killing somebody with a feather duster? Not likely! Doesn't make it legal, see? Do you see? I don't have to find an example of somebody who was found guilty of rape after getting "actual" but not "legal" consent for that to be against the law. I just have to find THE LAW that says as much, AND I DID.
 

Lithose

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People v. Ing
65 Cal. 2d 603


Girl says yes: Check
Didn't count for legal consent: Check
No minors or retards: Check


Yes, I suppose your criteria should have been more specific.

Edit: By the way, dude, you're being completely ridiculous. I don't have to find an example of someone breaking a law to prove that something is illegal. All I have to do is find legal documentation clearly stating that said action is illegal,and I did. Get over it, already.
That's an appeal; the decision was based upon him giving testimony to incriminate himself. Do you have the original case? The one where the question of rape was the actual relevant subject? I'm asking because the opinion of the Judges here doesn't say anything about the rape itself. So I'm not sure, if in the primary trial, whether or not things like him being a medical professional; and therefor in a position of authority, had anything to do with the ruling. I'd really like to read the original case (Not trying to do a gotcha, just can't find it.)
 

Tanoomba

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That's an appeal; the decision was based upon him giving testimony to incriminate himself. Do you have the original case? The one where the question of rape was the actual relevant subject? I'm asking because the opinion of the Judges here doesn't say anything about the rape itself. So I'm not sure, if in the primary trial, whether or not things like him being a medical professional; and therefor in a position of authority, had anything to do with the ruling. I'd really like to read the original case (Not trying to do a gotcha, just can't find it.)
No, I don't have the original case. This is my first foray into searching case law and it is a long and tedious process. Sorry!
 

Quaid

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The best part is watching a guy who couldn't do better in life than a 3rd grade ESL teacher (isn't that like a volunteer position at that point, kinda like serving soup at a soup kitchen?) pretending to have an actual knowledge of the law other than "feels". And getting curbstomped time and time again.
What do you do for a living Araysar?
 

Lithose

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No, I don't have the original case. This is my first foray into searching case law and it is a long and tedious process. Sorry!
Well, here is the thing.

In the citing case, the aspect of administration and his position of authority was mentioned, but it wasn't pertinent to the subject being formed (Which was, that it's POSSIBLE to be awake, and speaking, and not be able to consent.)

For instance, the evidence in People v. Ing (1967) 65 Cal.2d 603, 55 Cal.Rptr. 902, 422 P.2d 590 was that the defendant,a medical doctor, had administered injections to the victim on several occasions; ?that after receiving the shots, the victim felt "?'light-headed'?" and "?'just didn't care about anything'?" (id., p. 607, 55 Cal.Rptr. 902, 422 P.2d 590); ?that the doctor would then have intercourse with her; ?and that she would not have engaged in intercourse with him had she not been under the influence of the drugs (ibid.). There was apparently no evidence that the victim was unable to speak or otherwise communicate a refusal to consent; ?indeed, the evidence suggested that the victim actually consented to intercourse. Nevertheless, the court summarily rejected the defendant's contention that the evidence was insufficient to support his rape convictions. (Id., p. 612, 55 Cal.Rptr. 902, 422 P.2d 590.)

The judge here is setting up the opinion that being able to speak, and having theability to resit, doesn'titselfconstitute capacityto actually resist. But that's ALL this references, that someone can be coherent, and still be raped--but, the important thing here is theextenuating circumstances that made that decision possible. In the opinion, thejudge doesn't go into that, he merely says it IS possible. We'd need to look at the original case to see if him being a doctor, and the administration, played a part in their decision.

At least, from what I can tell of this. I'll need to read more about the Giardino case, but essentially, I believe, this is only saying that just because someoneCANgive consent, doesn't preclude it from rape. But that's leaving anawfullot of extenuating circumstances flying around, Tan. I'm pretty sure everyone would classify a cop blackmailing a woman as rape, even if she "consented" to the sex, for example. In that original case, the doctor being a medical expert, and in a position of authority, in addition to him administering the drug, might have been factors in the courts instructions, if that's the case, this case file doesn't prove much about the subject at hand (I don't know though, I'd like to read it.)

Remember, the core of the argument here (And I've mainly just been just watching, I did make one post about "legal consent" during contracts, because I do a lot of them over drinks, but all in all I'm not here jockeying for a side) is that if a woman drinks, and then consents, it's not rape. The extenuating circumstance of being drugged by someone else, who is in a position of authority (A doctor), RADICALLY changes the circumstance of that argument. Also, In ALL of this Judge's examples,the people drugged, were drugged BY SOMEONE ELSE. None of these drugs were ingested voluntarily. The judge in the Giardino case you linked, doesn't touch on the extenuating circumstances that made these rapes, he is simply producing a baseline and saying "there have been cases where women can consent, and it's still rape." But--we all know that, Tan. As I said above, if a cop says "you're going to jail for life unless you suck me off"--I'm going to go ahead and call that rape, even if she said yes and didn't resist.

Edit: (Just copying the parts of the opinions showing administration of the drugs was not self inflicted.)

evidence in People v. Ing (1967) 65 Cal.2d 603, 55 Cal.Rptr. 902, 422 P.2d 590 was that the defendant, a medical doctor, had administered injections to the victim on several occasions;

In another case against a medical doctor, the victim testified that she went to the defendant for treatment of a suspected illness. (People v. Wojahn (1959) 169 Cal.App.2d 135, 139, 337 P.2d 192.) He had her disrobe and gave her a shot and a capsule to swallow. (Ibid.)


Similarly, after ingesting an unspecified drug in a glass of wine at a restaurant, the victim in People v. Crosby (1911) 17 Cal.App. 518, 120 P. 441 walked with the defendant several blocks and up a flight of stairs to a rooming house, waited while the defendant registered for a room, and climbed another flight of stairs with the defendant and the landlord. (Id., p. 521, 120 P. 441.)
(Not sure if she voluntarily ingested or not, will have to look it up).
 

Tanoomba

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this is only saying that just because someone CAN give consent, doesn't preclude it from rape.
Well, it does also say "the evidence suggested that the victim actually consented to intercourse". I would also like to see more details on this case, but I'm just working with what I've got here, which does support my point.

Here'sanother casewhere a woman (who was on medication) had a few drinks and was completely wasted. The perpetrator entered her hotel room and had sex with her. He said she initiated, and we have no idea what actually happened behind closed doors, but there was plenty of evidence that the woman in question was completely unable to give legal consent, so the man was charged with rape under code 261(a)(3).

The case was appealed, but that just led to the charge of "rape of an unconscious woman" being dropped while the charge of "rape of an intoxicated woman" stuck.
 

Lithose

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Also, Tan. The Giardino case you linked, some of the convictions were overturned because, specifically.

In particular, the jury should have been instructed that its task was to determine whether, as a result of her level of intoxication, the victim lacked the legal capacity to give "consent" as that term is defined in section 261.6. Legal capacity is the ability to exercisereasonablejudgment, i.e., to understand and weigh not only the physical nature of the act, but also its moral character and probable consequences. (Cf. People v. Griffin, supra, 117 Cal. at p. 585, 49 P. 711; ?People v. Boggs, supra, 107 Cal.App. at p. 495, 290 P. 618; ?People v. Peery (1914) 26 Cal.App. 143, 145, 146 P. 44.)

In deciding whether the level of the victim'sintoxication deprived the victim of legal capacity, the jury shallconsider all the circumstances, including the victim's age and maturity. (Cf. People v. Young (1987) 190 Cal.App.3d 248, 257, 235 Cal.Rptr. 361.) It is not enough that the victim was intoxicated to some degree, or that the intoxication reduced the victim's sexual inhibitions. "Impaired mentality may exist and yet the individual may be able to exercise reasonable judgment with respect to the particular matter presented to his or her mind." (People v. Peery, supra, 26 Cal.App. at p. 145, 146 P. 44; ?accord, People v. Griffin, supra, 117 Cal. at p. 585, 49 P. 711.) Instead, the level of intoxication and the resulting mental impairment must have been so great ?that the victim could no longer exercise reasonable judgment concerning that issue


Which, I think, proves as I said above--that JUST being intoxicated wasn't the defining factor in those cases. There were a HOST of factors, and I think, if we read the original cases--him being in a position of authority, and administering the drugs, were two of those factors. The judge is saying here, specifically, that just being intoxicated to the point where you make choices you would not normally have made? Is not, at all, rape. There needs to be other factors, too, that prevent rational judgement (Even IF you are coherent.) I think if we dived back into that original case, we'd find the position of authority, and the vulnerability of the victim (Teenager who thought she was pregnant), limited her ability to make a rational judgment.

I don't think anyone here would argue that if someone in authority, drugged a woman--and then had sex with her, it wasn't a VERY different scenario than a woman drinking on her own volition, and then "hooking up" with a guy she wouldn't normally have.
 

Lithose

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Well, it does also say "the evidence suggested that the victim actually consented to intercourse". I would also like to see more details on this case, but I'm just working with what I've got here, which does support my point.

Here'sanother casewhere a woman (who was on medication) had a few drinks and was completely wasted. The perpetrator entered her hotel room and had sex with her. He said she initiated, and we have no idea what actually happened behind closed doors, but there was plenty of evidence that the woman in question was completely unable to give legal consent, so the man was charged with rape under code 261(a)(3).

The case was appealed, but that just led to the charge of "rape of an unconscious woman" being dropped while the charge of "rape of an intoxicated woman" stuck.
Well, as said, a host of factors. This woman pissed herself, and was left, literally, unconscious on the bed. Then the guy came back. Plenty of evidence there showing she was "black out" drunk. Which, most of the people in this thread, have said is definitely rape.
 

Loser Araysar

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What do you do for a living Araysar?
Used to be an executive for a major company, then owned my own business for several years, then got out of it for a couple reasons and went into advertising briefly, now I'm in consulting and business development while I figure out what I want to do moving forward.
 

Quaid

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Used to be an executive for a major company, then owned my own business for several years, then got out of it for a couple reasons and went into advertising briefly, now I'm in consulting and business development while I figure out what I want to do moving forward.
Ah, consulting. Makes sense. Was wondering wtf you did that allowed you to have the post count that you do.
 

Loser Araysar

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The post count is somewhat deceiving, most of my posts are 1 liners. Lithose with his 3,000 posts probably typed out way more compared to me.
 

Tanoomba

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Which, I think, proves as I said above--that JUST being intoxicated wasn't the defining factor in those cases. There were a HOST of factors, and I think, if we read the original cases--him being in a position of authority, and administering the drugs, were two of those factors. The judge is saying here, specifically, that just being intoxicated to the point where you make choices you would not normally have made? Is not, at all, rape. There needs to be other factors, too, that prevent rational judgement (Even IF you are coherent.)
Not how I interpreted that at all. JUST being intoxicated means "just being drunk". If you get drunk, even if you're less inhibited and would do stuff you normally wouldn't do, you can still give legal consent. In that case you may have bad judgment, but you're still capable of sound judgment. If you're drunk to the point where you no longer have sound judgment (trouble standing up, slurred speech, vomiting, etc), then you can no longer give legal consent, even if you can technically give "actual" consent. Factors like age and maturity can be considered in that a younger, less mature person might overestimate how much they can drink or might be easier to manipulate once drunk.

Here'sanother case. In this case friends were hanging out and drinking together and spending the night at someone's house. One guy slept with a very drunk girl, and it was later shown that she was not capable of giving legal consent. The defendant appealed because he claimed to have been unaware that she was too drunk to be able to give legal consent. Interestingly, this case addresses a point you just brought up. Apparently, until 1985, the perpetrator DID have to administer the drugs or alcohol him/herself in order for it to count as rape, but that was changed afterState v. Galati. This change caused confusion in this case, as requiring the accused to have administered the intoxicant automatically means the accused was aware of the victim's state. While, reasonably, the accused should be required to have knowledge that the victim is unable to consent, the judge in this case ruled that such knowledge was not necessary for a rape to have occurred.
 

Tanoomba

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Well, as said, a host of factors. This woman pissed herself, and was left, literally, unconscious on the bed. Then the guy came back. Plenty of evidence there showing she was "black out" drunk. Which, most of the people in this thread, have said is definitely rape.
Well, we don't know she was unconscious. We absolutely do know she was incapable of giving legal consent.