Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
No we don't. We know exactly where these behaviors came from. Our biological differences forced us into roles that were necessary for our survival. Our survival is now all but assured and our brains have developed to the point that regardless of how these roles came about, they are essentially obsolete. I'm not arguinghowwe got where we are, I'm arguing that supposed gender predispositions are all but irrelevant today.

So you'd agree that they're deeply ingrained, but if one wanted to shun them, they could?

fanaskin · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Who gets to decide that adding an egg to cake mix is a result of "subconscious desires"? Isn't it much more reasonable and logical to assume that women were raised to believe that getting a quality result required greater efforts? The fact that women felt like they were "cheating" by just mixing cake mix with water doesn't need to be explained by the subconscious or, at the very least, by any subconscious that is not a direct result of being shaped by the environment (which makes the idea that subconscious is gender-driven moot anyway). Society shapes how we think, and that includes our so-called "subconscious".

you're just literally making shit up as you go along to fit your preconceived notions, how scientific.

Tanoomba_sl said:
The desire to add an egg to cake mix is not part of instinct, it's a direct result of environmental influence, which overpowers any vestigial instincts we have. You're literally supporting my case for me.

how can you know this at all? all the corporate psychologists that make millions of dollars figuring out ways of manipulating people's desires to sell products do their job based on manipulating common subconscious decision making, but you can casually dismiss this because why? because you teach an ESL course sometimes?

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
TOTALLY independent? No. But the little influence our subconscious has is ultimately moot.

.

nothing cited, nothing gained

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Jive Turkey_sl said:
I also wonder if either of them realize that the whole "gender roles are mirroring" and "we make these decisions with our frontal lobes" completely undermines the physical nature of transgender identification which I'm sure they both think they support

Just pointing out this rather egregious dodge

Arbitrary · Jul 21, 2014

David didn't kill himself until he was 26 and after his brother had killed himself and after his marriage fell apart due to the strain. Do you think maybe the difficult relationship he had with his parents was the result of finding out at 13 that you've been lied to your entire life and that your feelings were right all along?

No amount of surgery, hormones, or environment can make a baby boy into a baby girl. Gender has a biological component beyond plumbing.

Tanoomba · Jul 21, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
No you dolt, this worked since the beginning since the earliest days of advertising they used psychologists to specifically appeal to people's subconscious desires, they are tapping into every bodies common subconscious desires. They don't have to instill this desire into people it already existed, it functions with people just the same if they grew up with it or not.

Again, what the heck makes you think these subconscious desires "already existed"? Your "feels"? Even if advertiser's didn't instill these desires themselves, even if they're exploiting desires that existed without their input, that in no way proves that these desires are not a direct result of environmental influences.

fanaskin · Jul 21, 2014

People are not rational beings, having bacon and eggs for breakfast was sold on this principle

fanaskin · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Again, what the heck makes you think these subconscious desires "already existed"? Your "feels"? Even if advertiser's didn't instill these desires themselves, even if they're exploiting desires that existed without their input, that in no way proves that these desires are not a direct result of environmental influences.

the techniques work pretty universally across all societies that have radically different environmental influences, you like to throw the word "feels" around and say it's untestable but never apply the principle to your own awkard explanations.

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

It's like Mist was replaced with an even less informed muppet

Arbitrary · Jul 21, 2014

Does anyone want to take the position that human beingsarerational?

Arbitrary · Jul 21, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
People are not rational beings, having bacon and eggs for breakfast was sold on this principle

Well that is disturbing.

Mist · Jul 21, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
seriously you've never heard of sigmund freud?

we don't have nearly as well an idea what's going on like we do in physics but it's pretty obvious the unconcious/subconcious plays a huge role in decision making.

http://www.donvanravenzwaaij.com/Pap...al,%202014.pdf
http://dtserv3.compsy.uni-jena.de/ws2008/sowpsy_ue/98247953/content.nsf/Pages/7BBFC28FCBFA3F8AC125767700529840/$FILE/acker_jdm71128.pdf
Cambridge Journals Online - Behavioral and Brain Sciences - Abstract - Unconscious influences on decision making: A critical review

Neural reactivation links unconscious thought to decision-making performance
CONSCIENCE WITHOUT COGNITION: THE EFFECTS OF SUBCONSCIOUS PRIMING ON ETHICAL BEHAVIOR

You literally don't get it, they appeal directly to your subconscious, it has nothing to do with "controlling your environment" and , controlling your environment would be insanely more difficult than just appealing to every bodies common subconscious desires.

No you dolt, this worked since the beginning since the earliest days of advertising they used psychologists to specifically appeal to people's subconscious desires, they are tapping into every bodies common subconscious desires. They don't have to instill this desire into people it already existed, it functions with people just the same if they grew up with it or not.

Pretty much all of Freudian psychoanalytic theory is considered complete bunk by mainstream modern psychologists, so thanks for your input. Specifically, psychoanalytic theory is THE MOST LACKING IN EMPIRCAL DATA of all major psychological framework theories.

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Mist_sl said:
Pretty much all of Freudian psychoanalytic theory is considered complete bunk by mainstream modern psychologists, so thanks for your input. Specifically, psychoanalytic theory is THE MOST LACKING IN EMPIRCAL DATA of all major psychological framework theories.

This is the first thing I agree with you on. I kinda cringed when I saw the link. Sorry, fanaskin

Mist · Jul 21, 2014

Lejina_sl said:
while there's no such thing as scientific theories in soft science as far as I know.

What? Seriously, what?

fanaskin · Jul 21, 2014

Mist_sl said:
Pretty much all of Freudian psychoanalytic theory is considered complete bunk by mainstream modern psychologists, so thanks for your input. Specifically, psychoanalytic theory is THE MOST LACKING IN EMPIRCAL DATA of all major psychological framework theories.

Aristotle/plato/socrates were wrong on alot of the things they said too, but it was a good place to start contemplating logic from practically nothing, I don't begrudge Freud for not fully understanding everything, but that's where investigation into this area started. notice I didn't link any papers from freud

Tanoomba · Jul 21, 2014

Jive Turkey_sl said:
Care to cite some studies behind your marvelous claim?

You need to stop calling out "feels" because that's all you've shown us so far

See: Brain plasticity, frontal lobe evolution, how language allowed us to change the way we process thought, how neural pathways are formed and reinforced.

No "feels" necessary, at least not on this side of the argument.

Jive Turkey_sl said:
So you'd agree that they're deeply ingrained, but if one wanted to shun them, they could?

What's deeply ingrained? Like I said, HUNGER is as deeply engrained as any human desire we could possibly have, but even hunger has virtually no influence in the important decisions we make, such as what career to pursue. Hunger is obsolete. We feel hunger as a biological necessity, one that forced us into action on a daily basis in primitive times, but it's moot now. You could literally sever the connection between your brain and your stomach so you'd never feel hungry again and, as long as you kept feeding yourself (which you would do, since you already know it's essential to your survival), you'd be totally fine.

People don't have to "shun" their gender identity or whatever inclinations are associated with that. Whatever inclinations people have, you'll see great enough variation among members of the same gender that whatever general variation exists between the genders is inconsequential.

Arbitrary_sl said:
No amount of surgery, hormones, or environment can make a baby boy into a baby girl. Gender has a biological component beyond plumbing.

You may be right, but we won't know it by looking at a case as fucked up as David's.

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
See: Brain plasticity, frontal lobe evolution, how language allowed us to change the way we process thought, how neural pathways are formed and reinforced.

No "feels" necessary, at least not on this side of the argument.

Care to cite how these things you listed specifically fit into your previous reply......

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
What's deeply ingrained? Like I said, HUNGER is as deeply engrained as any human desire we could possibly have, but even hunger has virtually no influence in the important decisions we make, such as what career to pursue. Hunger is obsolete. We feel hunger as a biological necessity, one that forced us into action on a daily basis in primitive times, but it's moot now. You could literally sever the connection between your brain and your stomach so you'd never feel hungry again and, as long as you kept feeding yourself (which you would do, since you already know it's essential to your survival), you'd be totally fine.

People don't have to "shun" their gender identity or whatever inclinations are associated with that. Whatever inclinations people have, you'll see great enough variation among members of the same gender that whatever general variation exists between the genders is inconsequential.

What a fucking load of pap

Jive Turkey · Jul 21, 2014

Speaking of brain development, since that seems to be turning your crank, would you like to talk about in utero androgen exposure and how that affects brain function?

Tanoomba · Jul 21, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
People are not rational beings, having bacon and eggs for breakfast was sold on this principle

Thanks for that example of how society's minds as a whole were influenced by external stimuli. You sure showed me.

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