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Quaid

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Also, the fact that you're claiming obesity is a result of people giving in to their instincts is ridiculous and based on nothing but your "feels". And no, today's fatties wouldn't be the "winners" in the plains of Africa. See, the plains of Africa don't have McDonald's, and the fatties that have been riding the gravy train would learn very quickly that living on the plains of Africa doesn't accommodate that lifestyle, a lifestyle that developed and was allowed to flourish by itsenvironment.
If an individual in Paleolithic era Africa did not have a desire to eat fat and sugar rich foods, they would not have survived, and would not have had children. We would not be here having this conversation, and the world would be a much better place.
 

Tanoomba

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Tanootard, explain why are men better fighters than females. In one word.
biology
Was anybody ever denying that men are physically stronger than women? Or, you know, could this be yet another in a long line of strawmen? Try again.
 

Tanoomba

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If an individual in Paleolithic era Africa did not have a desire to eat fat and sugar rich foods, they would not have survived, and would not have had children. We would not be here having this conversation, and the world would be a much better place.
You're talking about behavior that developed out of NECESSITY. Individuals in Paleolithic era Africa didn't have many options when it came to eating to survive. We, on the other hand, have nothing but options. Our dietary habits are, for the most part, in our hands. Because we have the freedom to eat whatever we want whenever we want, hunger is not a relevant influence on our higher-order decision making. Heck, part of the reason we are evencapableof high order decision making is because our brains are no longer preoccupied with survival.
 

Quaid

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You're talking about behavior that developed out of NECESSITY. Individuals in Paleolithic era Africa didn't have many options when it came to eating to survive. We, on the other hand, have nothing but options. Our dietary habits are, for the most part, in our hands. Because we have the freedom to eat whatever we want whenever we want, hunger is not a relevant influence on our higher-order decision making. Heck, part of the reason we are evencapableof high order decision making is because our brains are no longer preoccupied with survival.
Sugar and fat cravings are so ancient that they predate the human species by millions of years. They are ingrained in our neurology. Sure, we have higher level intelligence to ignore the urge to consume these foods given the conditions you mention above, but that does not mean that instinctual forces don't play a role in our decision making.
 

fanaskin

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Actually, that argument "omits" nothing of the sort. Even though there are biological reasons the genders have evolved to behave certain ways, those biological forces are currently all but meaningless compared to the effects of the environment on a developing brain.
regardless of how moldable people are, there is a question of innate structure that gives tendancies or common traits to genders. do you realize how highly manipulative and controlling you'd have to be to actually impose those behaviorism methods on society to achieve your idealistic goals?, it would be vastly more repressive than the church ever was.
 

Tanoomba

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Sugar and fat cravings are so ancient that they predate the human species by millions of years. They are ingrained in our neurology. Sure, we have higher level intelligence to ignore the urge to consume these foods given the conditions you mention above, but that does not mean that instinctual forces don't play a role in our decision making.
Sure, but the role they play is negligible compared to the influence of the environment. Except, of course, according to some people'sfeels.

regardless of how moldable people are, there is a question of innate structure that gives tendancies or common traits to genders. do you realize how highly manipulative and controlling you'd have to be to actually impose those behaviorism methods on society to achieve your idealistic goals?, it would be vastly more repressive than the church ever was.
What are you talking about? You don't have to be manipulative and controlling to impose "those" behaviorism methods! It happens by default! We have no choice but to be shaped by our environments, dude. Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you "my idealistic goals". I don't think I ever expressed anything close to an idealistic goal in this conversation.
 

Quaid

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Sure, but the role they play is negligible compared to the influence of the environment. Except, of course, according to some people'sfeels.
I wouldn't use the term 'negligible'. I think that's a bit extreme. Maybe 'secondary, in most cases' at best. You're also not really giving credit to the profound interplay between environmental influence and gene expression, and how that relates to behavioural patterns learned over long periods of time.

Biological Basis for Behavior
 

Tanoomba

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I wouldn't use the term 'negligible'. I think that's a bit extreme. Maybe 'secondary, in most cases' at best
I'm not going to rag on you because you're a reasonable guy. Heck, you agree with the fundamental principle but take issue with degree, which is more than I can say for many people here. Just remember that what you "think" isn't as valid as what can be proven, and in the end everything we've learned about the brain strongly supports the idea that instinctual forces have very little influence on higher-level brain functions (certainly including career choices).
 

fanaskin

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What are you talking about? You don't have to be manipulative and controlling to impose "those" behaviorism methods! It happens by default!
no there seems to be a default innate structure to biological organisms, the type of behaviorism you and mist have been talking about through reward structures is Pavlovian in nature, you can teach a bear to ride a bicycle if you beat it enough is what you guys have been essentially arguing

innatism
Scientific ideas[edit]
In his Meno, Plato raises an important epistemological quandary: How is it that we have certain ideas which are not conclusively derivable from our environments? Noam Chomsky has taken this problem as a philosophical framework for the scientific enquiry into innatism. His linguistic theory, which derives from 18th century classical-liberal thinkers such as Wilhelm von Humboldt, attempts to explain in cognitive terms how we can develop knowledge of systems which are said, by supporters of innatism, to be too rich and complex to be derived from our environment. One such example is our linguistic faculty. Our linguistic systems contain a systemic complexity which supposedly could not be empirically derived: the environment seems too poor, variable and indeterminate, according to Chomsky, to explain the extraordinary ability to learn complex concepts possessed by very young children. It follows that humans must be born with a universal innate grammar, which is determinate and has a highly organized directive component, and enables the language learner to ascertain and categorize language heard into a system. Noam Chomsky cites as evidence for this theory the apparent invariability, according to his views, of human languages at a fundamental level. In this way, linguistics may provide a window into the human mind, and establish scientific theories of innateness which otherwise would remain merely speculative.

One implication of Noam Chomsky's innatism, if correct, is that at least a part of human knowledge consists in cognitive predispositions, which are triggered and developed by the environment, but not determined by it. Parallels can then be drawn, on a purely speculative level, between our moral faculties and language, as has been done by sociobiologists such as E. O. Wilson and evolutionary psychologists such as Steven Pinker. The relative consistency of fundamental notions of morality across cultures seems to produce convincing evidence for these theories. In psychology, notions of archetypes such as those developed by Carl Jung, suggest determinate identity perceptions.
Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you "my idealistic goals". I don't think I ever expressed anything close to an idealistic goal in this conversation.
I think we all know your attitudes towards life, and how idealistic they are
 

Quaid

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I'm not going to rag on you because you're a reasonable guy. Heck, you agree with the fundamental principle but take issue with degree, which is more than I can say for many people here. Just remember that what you "think" isn't as valid as what can be proven, and in the end everything we've learned about the brain strongly supports the idea that instinctual forces have very little influence on higher-level brain functions (certainly including career choices).
Oh, I'm not talking about situations where fully functioning adults are putting real thought into decisions. Career choice, healthy eating, etc etc. I'm talking about situations where individuals are reacting outside of 'rational' decision-making. What is the driving force, then?

Two men in a physical altercation at a bar over a woman.
A woman who kills her partner in a jealous rage.
The impulse candy bar purchase at the checkout.
The 3 year old girl who chooses which toy to play with that morning. The doll or the building blocks?...

Now, that little girl keeps doing this long before she is capable of knowing the long-term consequences of submitting to her instinctually-driven choice of toy. She never really develops an affinity toward activities that require acute spatial awareness early on. Her instinctually driven behaviour as an infant has had long term impacts on her life. Would you say, then, that biological behaviour influences do have an impact on things like career choice/aptitude?

I'd love to see research on that. Super interesting.
 

Tanoomba

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no there seems to be a default innate structure to biological organisms, the type of behaviorism you and mist have been talking about through reward structures is Pavlovian in nature, you can teach a bear to ride a bicycle if you beat it enough is what you guys have been essentially arguing
Bears are not capable of high level thought. Can we stick to talking about humans, please? HUMANS, born and raised in a civilized society developed by and for humans, will behave the way civilization teaches them to behave. We learn to speak, read, and write. We learn how to interact with others in socially acceptable ways. We learn how to set and pursue goals, how to appreciate creativity, how to contribute to society. All of this is learned behavior. Again, you think instinct is an important aspect of this learned behavior becausefeels.


I think we all know your attitudes towards life, and how idealistic they are
I'm not talking about how thingsshouldbe. I'm not making any suggestions about how society needs to change. The only thing I've been saying is that it's foolish to assume that gender pre-disposition towards certain intellectual fields is due to inherent biological differences. There is no evidence that supports this theory (lots offeels, though), andplentyof evidence that shows that the environment has a far stronger effect on people's career choices than any inherent biological inclinations.

That fact that you think this somehow has anything to do with my "idealistic goals" betrays your need for yet another strawman. "He's not saying anything wrong, but I know he's got idealistic views so thismustbe part of his agenda. Myfeelstell me so."
 

Lendarios

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Was anybody ever denying that men are physically stronger than women? Or, you know, could this be yet another in a long line of strawmen? Try again.
And this biological difference diretly translate into a societal role.bilogy and genetic trait direct some roles. Not all of the, but some do.
 

Tanoomba

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Oh, I'm not talking about situations where fully functioning adults are putting real thought into decisions. Career choice, healthy eating, etc etc. I'm talking about situations where individuals are reacting outside of 'rational' decision-making. What is the driving force, then?

Two men in a physical altercation at a bar over a woman.
A woman who kills her partner in a jealous rage.
The impulse candy bar purchase at the checkout.
The 3 year old girl who chooses which toy to play with that morning. The doll or the building blocks?...
None of these necessarily demonstrate "instinctual" behavior.
Two men can get into a fight because they'll lose face if they don't. Let the other guy take the girl and you're a pussy. Of course you could argue that this behavior developed as a result of competition between males playing an important role in human evolution and I wouldn't argue that. That doesn't change that we aretaughtto behave in ways that continue to reflect obsolete or vestigial instincts. Itseemslogical to say that instinct is the puppet master behind our behavior, especially since it can be proven that they did play an essential role in getting us to this point. However, that's not how the brain works. Not any more, at least.

Let's look at some of your other examples:
A woman kills her partner in a jealous rage because society tells her he should be loyal to her and her alone. Even if jealousy is instinctual, she learned the "rules" of social interaction and that provided the framework for the scenario. If society taught her that polygamy was the norm, she would never have gotten jealous.
Even an "impulse" candy purchase is shaped by society. "It's just a dollar." "I worked hard today, so I earned a little reward." "I haven't had one of these in a while." "I'm not having dinner for a few hours so this should hold me over." "They're two for one so I'll bring one home for my wife." We are raised in an environment where candy is readily available and serves a purpose, so even if it seems like instinct pushed you to buy that candy, it's still learned behavior.
The three year old girl is choosing from among the toys already selected and purchased by her parents. She's sitting there in her pink jammies and, whether she's aware of it or not, she acts in ways that she learns result in positive feedback from those around her. They give her dolls, she plays with dolls. Now, if she is inclined to play with blocks and receives positive reinforcement for doing so, great. She's still going to see other little girls wearing pink and playing with dolls and little boys wearing blue and playing with trucks. Her behavior and perception is still being shaped by what society tells her is normal.

Now, that little girl keeps doing this long before she is capable of knowing the long-term consequences of submitting to her instinctually-driven choice of toy. She never really develops an affinity toward activities that require acute spatial awareness early on. Her instinctually driven behaviour as an infant has had long term impacts on her life. Would you say, then, that biological behaviour influences do have an impact on things like career choice/aptitude?

I'd love to see research on that. Super interesting.
Even if the choice of a doll over blocks was "instinctual" (in that it was based solely on one's innate desire and not rational decision-making), it was society that put that doll there in the first place because society already decided she would be inclined to play with it. If she was raised in a society where boys and girls weren't color-coded andtaughtto behave differently, she might have chosen a toy truck over either the doll or the blocks. Just because society reflects the instincts that helped us evolve, that doesn't mean these instincts still play a vital, or even relevant, role.
 

fanaskin

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HUMANS, born and raised in a civilized society developed by and for humans, will behave the way civilization teaches them to behave. We learn to speak, read, and write. We learn how to interact with others in socially acceptable ways. We learn how to set and pursue goals, how to appreciate creativity, how to contribute to society. All of this is learned behavior. Again, you think instinct is an important aspect of this learned behavior because
none of this is proven at all what you are saying, that it is all mimic'd behavior and there is no innate deterministic biological structure that would guide this behavior. If you think about it logically what you are saying couldn't possibly be true that it's all learned behavior without any innate structure or there wouldn't be so many universal similarities between people what you are saying is based on "because feels", neuroscience doesn't seem to prove anything you've just said at all.

Behaviorism and neuroscience. [Psychol Rev. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

contemporary behaviorists have not been opposed to the study of neurobiological substrates of behavior.On the other hand, classical behaviorist views of thinking, that is, as reflex chains, have been largely discounted by developments in neuroscience.Classical behaviorism is viewed by many as being most at odds with the modern fields of cognitive psychology and cognitive neuroscience
hey look a neuobiological basis for specifics parts of behavoir is ok with behavoirsts
 

Tanoomba

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And this biological difference diretly translate into a societal role.bilogy and genetic trait direct some roles. Not all of the, but some do.
A biological predisposition towards greater physical strength does, in fact, translate into being better suited for societal roles that depend on physical strength. Bravo.
 

fanaskin

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A biological predisposition towards greater physical strength does, in fact, translate into being better suited for societal roles that depend on physical strength. Bravo.
but this can't possibly happen with the brain because?
 

Tanoomba

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none of this is proven at all what you are saying, that it is all mimic'd behavior and there is no innate deterministic biological structure that would guide this behavior. If you think about it logically what you are saying couldn't possibly be true that it's all learned behavior without any innate structure or there wouldn't be so many universal similarities between people what you are saying is based on "because feels", neuroscience doesn't seem to prove anything you've just said at all.
I didn't say "mimic'd", I said "learned". And no, my explanation allows perfectly well for "universal" similarities. There's nothing about similar behavior being displayed in different cultures that disproves that behavior is learned.

but this can't possibly happen with the brain because?
Because that's not how the brain works.
 

mkopec

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But were taking about gender roles here, bro.

Now explain to me why my 2 boys play with guns, play fight, cars, trucks, legos always getting into "contests to see whose better" etc... From a very early age. There was no societal pressures on them. Maybe TV? But even this was limited to kids DVDs and such. Especially at an early age when we limited their TV screen time. Little Einstein DvDs and the such. We had toys of all kinds, including dolls and doll houses that my wife had lying around, stuffed anmals. Why is it that boys gravitate to trucks, trains, legos, and other such "masculine" toys? Were talking about toddlers here, bro. They were basically sheltered from "society" at this point. and its not like we forced them to lay with any of that shit. So why is it that they gravitated to those types of toys? Fuck, one of my first words past momma and dada that my first son uttered, was pointing at my car in the driveway from my front window and saying "caa". I still remember this moment as it happened yesterday.

This is why this entire premise that most things like gender roles are driven by society is a bunch of bullshit. Anyone with kids can attest to this as being bullshit.
 

fanaskin

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I didn't say "mimic'd", I said "learned".
this is literally how behaviorists say people learn, they imitate/mimic behavior of people around them and are rewarded/punished for that behavior, do you even know what you are talking about? what is your idea of a learning mechanism. you can't just say they "learned"

And no, my explanation allows perfectly well for "universal" similarities. There's nothing about similar behavior being displayed in different cultures that disproves that behavior is learned.
yeah nothing except logic, if there was no innate structure wouldn't you see wild deviations between cultures? especially in the isolated periods were there was no contact between cultures?
 

fanaskin

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Sex differences in personality traits and gender-related occupational preferences across 53 nations: testing evolutionary and social-environmental theories.[Arch Sex Behav. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract
Using data from over 200,000 participants from 53 nations, I examined the cross-cultural consistency of sex differences for four traits: extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism, and male-versus-female-typical occupational preferences. Across nations, men and women differed significantly on all four traits (mean ds = -.15, -.56, -.41, and 1.40, respectively, with negative values indicating women scoring higher). The strongest evidence for sex differences in SDs was for extraversion (women more variable) and for agreeableness (men more variable). United Nations indices of gender equality and economic development were associated with larger sex differences in agreeableness, but not with sex differences in other traits. Gender equality and economic development were negatively associated with mean national levels of neuroticism, suggesting that economic stress was associated with higher neuroticism. Regression analyses explored the power of sex, gender equality, and their interaction to predict men's and women's 106 national trait means for each of the four traits.Only sex predicted means for all four traits, and sex predicted trait means much more strongly than did gender equality or the interaction between sex and gender equality.These results suggest that biological factors may contribute to sex differences in personality and that culture plays a negligible to small role in moderating sex differences in personality.
tanoomba: "guys the science backs me up 100% without error"