Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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Tanoomba

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Actually many rape cases are prosecuted just like this, and the rape shield laws permit a full character assassination on the defendant while prohibiting the same on the victim. So the victim can be believed "beyond a reasonable doubt" with no corroborating evidence. Rape trials aren't very common but I have seen a couple and one of them was like this. Thats what I don't think you understand, people's lives can be ruined with these accusations on very little evidence - if anything we need to raise the standards of evidence for these, not lower them.
According to the prosecutor's guide, an important strategy is to see if the accused was demonstrating "predatory" behavior and to verify if he has been accused of similar crimes in the past. Is this considered "character assassination" to you? I'm actually curious since you were very vague.
And if the victim is not allowed to have her character questioned, it's because her character is not relevant. If it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that she was not capable of rational judgment, then it doesn't matter if she's the alcoholic town slut or not, she was still incapable of giving legal consent and it was still rape. Keep in mind I'm not giving the victim a free pass here. One of the questions in the prosecutor's guide is "Is there a motive to lie? If not, why is the victim?s veracity being questioned?" The defense can try to show that she does have reason to lie. After all, if she IS lying, there is a reason. Nobody makes false rape accusations for nothing.

You claim to have seen a rape case where the defendant was found guilty with what you consider to be "no corroborating evidence". You give no other details. Can you find us a case law example of a man found guilty of rape even though there was insufficient evidence? Otherwise, I'm forced to assume you simply didn't agree with the evidence, which wouldn't surprise me at all since you have repeatedly shown to have a feeble grasp of actual rape law.

I'm not claiming that lives can't be ruined due to false rape accusations. However, there's nothing in the law (as it's written) that favors the victim. In fact, the prosecutor's guide states repeatedly that one of the biggest challenges to overcome is the jury's predisposition to believe the victim was just acting irresponsibly and regrets what happened. This is the same assumption every single person made here when the topic was mentioned, as if this were the primary reason "too drunk to consent" cases would go to court at all. Why wouldn't you think this kind of bias would be present in juries? If anything, the prosecutor has the double challenge of both proving the victim was not capable of reasonable judgment (and that the accused knew) AND convincing the jury that this isn't some sex-crazed party girl suffering from buyer's remorse (which is what they would be naturally inclined to believe in such cases).

But talk is cheap. Show me some case law.
 

Tanoomba

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So what change in law would have prevented these men from being found guilty? Those were all cases of eyewitness misidentification, right? There's no implication that the victims made up their stories (which is specifically what you were talking about in your last post). In fact, without reading in too much detail it seems like in all of those cases, a rape or sexual assault DID actually take place. Why are you connecting those to cases where someone is making false rape accusations?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but was alcohol involved in any of those cases? Seems to me like you're comparing apples and oranges.
 

Johnny53

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Cad

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So what change in law would have prevented these men from being found guilty? Those were all cases of eyewitness misidentification, right? There's no implication that the victims made up their stories (which is specifically what you were talking about in your last post). In fact, without reading in too much detail it seems like in all of those cases, a rape or sexual assault DID actually take place. Why are you connecting those to cases where someone is making false rape accusations?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but was alcohol involved in any of those cases? Seems to me like you're comparing apples and oranges.
The point is that people get convicted on he said/she said testimony all the time. With no corroborating evidence.
 

iannis

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I don't know how this thread possibly made it to page 114 without J49.

It seems so obvious in retrospect.

J49. You complete us.
 

fanaskin

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start at 14 minutes, takes a couple minutes from there to get started but it glimpses how these partisan views poison inclusive social movements at the ground level.




Mykeru's law:
As any progressive movement grows and achieves success, the probability of it being co-opted by women who want to make it all about their vagina approaches 1
 

Tanoomba

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The point is that people get convicted on he said/she said testimony all the time. With no corroborating evidence.
No, you said that we need to "raise the standard of evidence". This is after you said that the standards for proving someone was too drunk to be capable of reasonable judgment are already incredibly high. So I repeat, how would raising the standard of evidence from its already exceptionally high bar in "too drunk for consent" cases prevent false rape accusations any more than they already are?

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate. People are falsely accused of crimes (not just rapes) all the time because the witness is mistaken in identifying them. This has always been a problem with criminal cases, and luckily we now have access to DNA testing that helps prevent the wrong people of being convicted of crimes. None of this has anything at all to do with "rape shield laws" or "character assassination" or false rape accusations. To imply that somebody sent to jail after being mistakenly identified by eyewitness testimony is somehow the same as "He raped me!" vs "No, I didn't!" is preposterous.

Since we're talking about "too drunk to consent" cases, and you claim to have seen at least one where the accused was found guilty without evidence, can you find a case law that illustrates this? Not case law where mistaken eyewitness testimony led to an innocent person being found guilty (which has nothing to do with what we're talking about), but a case where "she said" won out over "he said" in a "too drunk to consent" rape case. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.
 

Cad

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No, you said that we need to "raise the standard of evidence". This is after you said that the standards for proving someone was too drunk to be capable of reasonable judgment are already incredibly high. So I repeat, how would raising the standard of evidence from its already exceptionally high bar in "too drunk for consent" cases prevent false rape accusations any more than they already are?

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate. People are falsely accused of crimes (not just rapes) all the time because the witness is mistaken in identifying them. This has always been a problem with criminal cases, and luckily we now have access to DNA testing that helps prevent the wrong people of being convicted of crimes. None of this has anything at all to do with "rape shield laws" or "character assassination" or false rape accusations. To imply that somebody sent to jail after being mistakenly identified by eyewitness testimony is somehow the same as "He raped me!" vs "No, I didn't!" is preposterous.

Since we're talking about "too drunk to consent" cases, and you claim to have seen at least one where the accused was found guilty without evidence, can you find a case law that illustrates this? Not case law where mistaken eyewitness testimony led to an innocent person being found guilty (which has nothing to do with what we're talking about), but a case where "she said" won out over "he said" in a "too drunk to consent" rape case. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.
The rape shield laws are relevant because in a he-said she-said case, the credibility of the testifying person is at issue. Which means you (generally) get to bring up every shitty thing they've done in their life so the jury knows who they are listening to. This happens all the time. Have a fraud conviction 10 years ago? Relevant to your honesty today. Etc. But with rape shield, you generally cannot bring up the past or (depending on the state) even the identity of the accuser. They have to testify in court but you can't impeach them based on their life the same way the defendant can be. Surely you see how, in a he-said she-said case, this is relevant.

And you want case law, here's an easy one. Guy gets convicted on no evidence other than he-said she-said in an intoxication rape case.

Intoxicated Consent in Rape: Bree and Juror Decision-Making | Phil Rumney - Academia.edu

Its in England, so the statutes are somewhat different, but the discussion of the issue in the article are telling. His case got overturned on appeal due to the improper summing up by the judge. (This isn't something we do in the US, but in Europe judges often comment on the evidence.)
 

Tanoomba

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The rape shield laws are relevant because in a he-said she-said case, the credibility of the testifying person is at issue. Which means you (generally) get to bring up every shitty thing they've done in their life so the jury knows who they are listening to. This happens all the time. Have a fraud conviction 10 years ago? Relevant to your honesty today. Etc. But with rape shield, you generally cannot bring up the past or (depending on the state) even the identity of the accuser. They have to testify in court but you can't impeach them based on their life the same way the defendant can be. Surely you see how, in a he-said she-said case, this is relevant.
If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim was not capable of reasonable judgment, then her character is absolutely and completely irrelevant.
If it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim was not capable of reasonable judgment, then the accused is found not guilty and the victim's character isstillcompletely irrelevant.

And you want case law, here's an easy one. Guy gets convicted on no evidence other than he-said she-said in an intoxication rape case.

Intoxicated Consent in Rape: Bree and Juror Decision-Making | Phil Rumney - Academia.edu

Its in England, so the statutes are somewhat different, but the discussion of the issue in the article are telling. His case got overturned on appeal due to the improper summing up by the judge. (This isn't something we do in the US, but in Europe judges often comment on the evidence.)
We're looking at case law dealing with the subject at hand, so we're making progress here. Good on you.
I don't necessarily have a problem with this case being from England (although I do question why you couldn't find one from the States if it was so "easy"), but you're clearly oversimplifying here. This is not a typical or regular case:
Bree analysis_sl said:
Bree?s significance lies inthe fact that it is the first time the Court of Appeal has had to address the subject of voluntary heavy alcohol consumption as it applies to the law of rape under the 2003 Act.
This case was marred with confusion. The prosecution first said that the victim was unconscious and therefore incapable of consenting, but the victim's testimony indicated she was conscious but did not consent. The judge did not address this shift in his summing up, causing difficulty for the jury.
Bree analysis_sl said:
Bree was convicted of rape, perhaps surprisingly, given the nature of the conflicting evidence. The Court of Appeal quashed his conviction on the grounds that the jury were given no or no sufficient directions to enable the verdict which they reached to be regarded as safe. Other than reading the statutory definition of consent, the trial judge had offered no further direction to the jury as to the issue of consent and had only mentioned the complainant?s self-induced intoxication with reference to her reliability as a witness and not her capacity to consent. The Court of Appeal found that the jury should have been given some assistance with the meaning of ??capacity?? ... where the complainant was affected by her own voluntarily induced intoxication and also whether, and to what extent they could take that into account in deciding whether she had consented.
The jury were not given the proper tools to make their judgment, their judgment was overturned. Nobody was punished unfairly. Explain to me how this is a case of the victim's side unfairly being given more weight than the side of the accused. Explain to me how "rape shield" laws are in any way relevant to this case.

While I don't think this particular case helped you make your point (since we have no reason to believe the jury's decision was anything less than a result of them simply not having the right information in order to make an informed decision, AND since the case was overturned on those grounds anyway), it actually does help me with the point I made three posts ago.
Bree analysis_sl said:
Kramer details research that indicates the existence of a fundamental double standard in public attitudes to rape: intoxication tends to reduce men?s culpability and increase women?s culpability. Likewise, in a review of literature on attitudes to rape, Ward notes: ?People are ... more likely to see intoxication as contributing to the woman?s responsibility in sexual assault.? Most recently, an ICM poll of 1,095 adults prepared for Amnesty International, found that 26 per cent of participants thought a woman partially responsible for being raped when drunk, and four percent thought she was totally responsible. In order to establish whether such attitudes actually influence juror decision-making, several studies have examined the effect of complainant intoxication on rape juries. Early researchfrom the United Statesfound that ?[rape] jurors were influenced by a victim?s "character". They were less likely to believe in a defendant?s guilt when the victim had reportedly '... drank or used drugs ...? It was also found that jurors were likely to take into account a bewildering array of complainant character traits, ?carelessness? and the extent to which her ?gender role behavior? departed from that expected of a woman.
So, like I said, many jurors (just like most of the posters on this thread) jump to the conclusion that if the victim had been drinking voluntarily, she takes responsibility for what happens to her as a result. These are assumptions that are madeeven with"rape shield" laws in place. You make it sound like rape victims are given so much protection and benefit of the doubt that it's all too easy for them to make false rape accusations and send innocent men to jail. You haven't found meone casewhere this has happened, so this whole train of thought of yours seems entirely based on... say it with me... "feels".
 

Cad

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If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim was not capable of reasonable judgment, then her character is absolutely and completely irrelevant.
If it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim was not capable of reasonable judgment, then the accused is found not guilty and the victim's character isstillcompletely irrelevant.
Her testimony is how you establish whether she was capable of reasonable judgment. (This reasonable judgment thing is california specific, another reminder.) So whether or not the jury should believe her testimony could turn on their judgment of her character. Just like every other witness in every other trial. But the rape shield laws prevent this.

This case was marred with confusion. The prosecution first said that the victim was unconscious and therefore incapable of consenting, but the victim's testimony indicated she was conscious but did not consent. The judge did not address this shift in his summing up, causing difficulty for the jury.
Witness probably changed her story. That happens when you're making things up and/or totally can't remember. Remember the proof problem I told you about?

The jury were not given the proper tools to make their judgment, their judgment was overturned. Nobody was punished unfairly. Explain to me how this is a case of the victim's side unfairly being given more weight than the side of the accused. Explain to me how "rape shield" laws are in any way relevant to this case.
Nobody said rape shield laws were relevant to THAT case. They're relevant to any case in which an accuser's testimony is the only evidence, but that accuser cannot be impeached because of the rape shield laws.

While I don't think this particular case helped you make your point (since we have no reason to believe the jury's decision was anything less than a result of them simply not having the right information in order to make an informed decision, AND since the case was overturned on those grounds anyway), it actually does help me with the point I made three posts ago.
You realize that guy was imprisoned for several years while his appeal took place right? And he might well have been re-tried afterwards, I don't know. Considerable harm done. And the point was that people are convicted on complainant testimony with no corroborating evidence. Which is exactly what happened in this case. You're shifting the goalposts again.

So, like I said, many jurors (just like most of the posters on this thread) jump to the conclusion that if the victim had been drinking voluntarily, she takes responsibility for what happens to her as a result. These are assumptions that are madeeven with"rape shield" laws in place. You make it sound like rape victims are given so much protection and benefit of the doubt that it's all too easy for them to make false rape accusations and send innocent men to jail. You haven't found meone casewhere this has happened, so this whole train of thought of yours seems entirely based on... say it with me... "feels".
Really dude? Nobody has found a case with false rape accusations?

Tawana Brawley, for one.
Duke lacrosse case

These are in the last few years and just the ones that made the news. You seriously think there aren't cases? NOT ONE CASE, eh? Theres TWO!
smile.png
It also needs to be a fairly newsworthy case for it to actually be proven to be a false accusation. There was a guy who lives right near me who got accused of rape by a high school girl (he's also in high school) and wasn't indicted by the grand jury. But he lost his baseball scholarship, got kicked off the baseball team in school, completely ostracized. His family sued the girl's family for defamation and got a good settlement out of them.

But yes, false rape accusations never happen. NOT ONE CASE. Lol. NOT ONE!
 

Tanoomba

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You realize that guy was imprisoned for several years while his appeal took place right? And he might well have been re-tried afterwards, I don't know. Considerable harm done. And the point was that people are convicted on complainant testimony with no corroborating evidence. Which is exactly what happened in this case. You're shifting the goalposts again.
Actually, he was imprisoned for six months (which I did not realize until I looked it up). I'm not implying that it's insignificant, but it certainly wasn't "several years". He was not re-tried afterwards. It was a fucked case (under the circumstances surrounding the change of legal definitions, it was all but bound to be), and in no way illustrative of the dangers you are associating with current US rape law.


Really dude? Nobody has found a case with false rape accusations?

Tawana Brawley, for one.
Duke lacrosse case

These are in the last few years and just the ones that made the news. You seriously think there aren't cases? NOT ONE CASE, eh? Theres TWO!
smile.png
It also needs to be a fairly newsworthy case for it to actually be proven to be a false accusation. There was a guy who lives right near me who got accused of rape by a high school girl (he's also in high school) and wasn't indicted by the grand jury. But he lost his baseball scholarship, got kicked off the baseball team in school, completely ostracized. His family sued the girl's family for defamation and got a good settlement out of them.

But yes, false rape accusations never happen. NOT ONE CASE. Lol. NOT ONE!
For a guy that's quick to lash out with "Learn how to read!", you certainly don't practice what you preach. I didn't say false rape accusations didn't exist, I said YOU had yet to find me a case of a false rape accusation sending an innocent man to jail. Check it, I didn't edit shit. It's right there in what YOU QUOTED.

Tawana Brawley:
After hearing evidence,a grand jury concluded in October 1988 that Brawley had not been the victim of a forcible sexual assaultand that she herself may have created the appearance of an attack.[2] The New York prosecutor whom Brawley had accused as one of her alleged assailants successfully sued Brawley and her three advisers for defamation.
So... the legal system worked as it was supposed to, then?

Duke Lacrosse Case:
On April 11, 2007,North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent.Cooper stated that the charged players - Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans - were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making him the first prosecutor in North Carolina debarred for trial conduct. Nifong served one day in jail for lying about sharing DNA tests (criminal contempt), although the lab director says it's a misunderstanding and Nifong says it's weak memory.[10] Mangum faced no charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.
Ummm... the legal system... worked... again?

But thanks for the story about your friend who was falsely accused, rightly found innocent, and was financially reimbursed for the inconveniences caused to him. Surely these are signs of a broken system.

Her testimony is how you establish whether she was capable of reasonable judgment. (This reasonable judgment thing is california specific, another reminder.) So whether or not the jury should believe her testimony could turn on their judgment of her character. Just like every other witness in every other trial. But the rape shield laws prevent this.
I'm ending with this quote because you STILL have yet to find me a case where an innocent man was found guilty of false rape accusations. Again, I'm not saying such a case doesn't exist, but you have yet to show me one.

I was trying to be civil here, but since you got all snarky I'm going to come out and say that the more you speak, the less reason any of us have to believe you're a lawyer. You are exhibiting remarkable difficulty finding case law to prove your points. To be fair, even a real lawyer would, since your points are shit, but then a real lawyer wouldn't make feels-based assessments of perceived flaws in the legal system without anything to back it up. A real lawyer would know how to properly explain his case and provide enough evidence to make a convincing argument. You have done nothing of the sort since this thread started. Honestly, I was fucking with you at first when I said you weren't a lawyer, but damned if I didn't inadvertently out you after all. Feels good, man.
 

Cad

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I'm ending with this quote because you STILL have yet to find me a case where an innocent man was found guilty of false rape accusations. Again, I'm not saying such a case doesn't exist, but you have yet to show me one.
This is some pretty impressive goalpost shifting. We've gone all the way to "show me someone actually convicted where the accusation was proven false afterwards."

We started with "You give no other details. Can you find us a case law example of a man found guilty of rape even though there was insufficient evidence?" - Many cases were given

Then we went to "Since we're talking about "too drunk to consent" cases, and you claim to have seen at least one where the accused was found guilty without evidence, can you find a case law that illustrates this?" - Case was given, there are plenty more

Then we went to "You make it sound like rape victims are given so much protection and benefit of the doubt that it's all too easy for them to make false rape accusations and send innocent men to jail. You haven't found me one case where this has happened" - Cases were given; all of these men spent time in jail

This is all on THIS PAGE.

rrr_img_72369.jpg
 

Tanoomba

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This is some pretty impressive goalpost shifting. We've gone all the way to "show me someone actually convicted where the accusation was proven false afterwards."

We started with "You give no other details. Can you find us a case law example of a man found guilty of rape even though there was insufficient evidence?" - Many cases were given
You're right. Many cases of men who were incorrectly identified by eyewitnesses were given. This had no relevance to our discussion about false rape accusations and the supposed flaws of current US rape law.


Then we went to "Since we're talking about "too drunk to consent" cases, and you claim to have seen at least one where the accused was found guilty without evidence, can you find a case law that illustrates this?" - Case was given, there are plenty more
Case was given in a different country operating under different law where jury confusion was responsible for the accused being found guilty. For the second time, your examples have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Then we went to "You make it sound like rape victims are given so much protection and benefit of the doubt that it's all too easy for them to make false rape accusations and send innocent men to jail. You haven't found me one case where this has happened" - Cases were given; all of these men spent time in jail
Can you show me that all of these men spent time in jail, because I'm having trouble finding any evidence of that. In fact, everything I've found so far suggests there was no jail time.

This is all on THIS PAGE.
I'll be more respectful toward you than you are toward me and I'll acknowledge that my initial request was not clear enough. I mistakenly thought that you understood the context of our conversation and that you wouldn't reference cases that have literally nothing to do with what we're talking about. I corrected that mistake by re-phrasing my request one time and one time only. If you want to consider that "shifting goal posts", go ahead. It was my fault for overestimating your intelligence and I'll take the consequences. You never satisfied that second request, though. The fact that you think you did is a testament to your ignorance.
 

Loser Araysar

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Haha tanoomba gets caught shifting goal posts for the 17th time