khalid
Unelected Mod
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Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...
- Thread starter Balthazar_sl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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Different students have different needs and learn in different ways. There is no "one size fits all" for teaching, even though it seems that way since teachers can't possibly give each individual student personalized lessons. However, one step in the right direction is to group students according to ability and modify the instruction the groups get to better suit their needs.
You also confuse "achiever" with "showoff". One is a student who is motivated to push him/herself to the best of his/her ability. The other wants to impress the teacher with unnecessary displays of ability. Not to mention that addressing said showoffs respectfully, acknowledging that their talent is impressive and giving them an opportunity to further show off outside of class time is FAR from "asking them to n longer participate openly". Negative reinforcement my ass.
Well if you just think Computer Science is a pointless program that shouldn't exist, just say so. Otherwise, you're not making a point here.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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Well Tanoomba, I think you are taking an overly flowery view of what went on.
For one, they did segregate by sex. For example, talking about the female professors taking students to see the Grace Hopper Conference. Also, while its possible that the teachers simply shut down people showing off, that is a thin line from stopping students who are actually participating in class. In addition, with all these changes, they increased women's participation. However, did this come at the cost of male students? It seems that by doing all these things, it is very possible it did result in men being less interested.
Also, while I initially took the article as showing that you can overcome biases, it seems they did an awful lot to overcome these biases. If they go back to a more "neutral" manner, will the class revert back to 10%? That was the whole supposed motivation of the documentaries that started this whole shitstorm. The fact that the more "egalitarian" countries still had these biases and campaigns to even out the genders in the sciences only had short term effects.
For one, they did segregate by sex. For example, talking about the female professors taking students to see the Grace Hopper Conference. Also, while its possible that the teachers simply shut down people showing off, that is a thin line from stopping students who are actually participating in class. In addition, with all these changes, they increased women's participation. However, did this come at the cost of male students? It seems that by doing all these things, it is very possible it did result in men being less interested.
Also, while I initially took the article as showing that you can overcome biases, it seems they did an awful lot to overcome these biases. If they go back to a more "neutral" manner, will the class revert back to 10%? That was the whole supposed motivation of the documentaries that started this whole shitstorm. The fact that the more "egalitarian" countries still had these biases and campaigns to even out the genders in the sciences only had short term effects.
Mist
REEEEeyore
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I like how the forum liberals here completely forget the point of progressivism as soon as it's not something that directly benefits white males.
The whole point is that humans are naturally resistant to change and that you have to actively induce change if you want it to happen. If it wasn't for actively inducing change, we'd still think that black people are just naturally suited to being slaves. I mean, fuck, that was established science at one point. Almost every social or technological advancement that's ever happened is because someone or a group of someones specifically advocated for a change to the status quo. The whole point of progressivism is to break society out of it's naturally and cyclically regressive tendencies.
And then, because you're predictable, you're going to counter with 'change for change's sake accomplishes nothing, why does it matter if there's more women in certain fields?' And then I'll use your own biological arguments against you, by stating that if adult male and female brains are structurally different, then having more different brains looking at the same problem can help eliminate certain cognitive biases and generate more/better possible solutions to a given problem.
The whole point is that humans are naturally resistant to change and that you have to actively induce change if you want it to happen. If it wasn't for actively inducing change, we'd still think that black people are just naturally suited to being slaves. I mean, fuck, that was established science at one point. Almost every social or technological advancement that's ever happened is because someone or a group of someones specifically advocated for a change to the status quo. The whole point of progressivism is to break society out of it's naturally and cyclically regressive tendencies.
And then, because you're predictable, you're going to counter with 'change for change's sake accomplishes nothing, why does it matter if there's more women in certain fields?' And then I'll use your own biological arguments against you, by stating that if adult male and female brains are structurally different, then having more different brains looking at the same problem can help eliminate certain cognitive biases and generate more/better possible solutions to a given problem.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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I'm totally cool with helping females into CS. As long as we get some normal white or asian chicks in there too, and not the fucking curry-smelling pear shaped head-bobbing indian chicks that look like they haven't bathed for a month. Who doesn't like having chicks in the office? A+
khalid
Unelected Mod
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Way to basically Godwin up the argument Mist. Yeah, having some qualms about this program is clearly the same as science supporting slavery.
Also, while I shouldn't have to say it, Progressivism isn't change for change's sake. Not all change is good. I'm not going to stand athwart history shouting stop, but blindly saying that every sort of change is good is also stupid.
Also, while I shouldn't have to say it, Progressivism isn't change for change's sake. Not all change is good. I'm not going to stand athwart history shouting stop, but blindly saying that every sort of change is good is also stupid.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Although I've got to say if their precious little psyches can't handle a dude standing up in class and talking (or the douche professor can't get them to shutup) I wonder what kind of future they have in basically any field that isn't going to coddle them due to their vagina.
iannis
Musty Nester
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Eh. I don't have a problem with what they're doing. It's an experiment with a voluntary participation. The most important thing is that they're focusing on the effect.
But Khalid is right, it would be good to see if the overall course sizes increased or if they're playing at some zero (or one sum) game with it. It is college administration after all. There is no administrative body that exists which is too good to massage their own numbers in order to cast themselves in the best possible light.
I assume that the increase comes at the cost of higher overall enrollment. But if the increase comes as the cost of steady enrollment, then you haven't really fixed any problem or addressed any concern. All you've really demonstrated is that it is possible to coerce ratios in your fixed system. If all you want to accomplish is a certain ratio, there are proven more direct and easier ways to do it. For that reason the experiment would be worthless.
It is a relevant piece of information to know. Me, I'm an optimist.
Another relevant piece of information is their graduation rates and their post degree employment rates within the industry. They probably have those stats and make a continuing effort to keep them updated. But that's no where near the focus of the article. That article is more along the lines of "see! Girls ARENT too dumb to do this!" Well, no. No one really claims that they are. Except arrogant assholes.
But Khalid is right, it would be good to see if the overall course sizes increased or if they're playing at some zero (or one sum) game with it. It is college administration after all. There is no administrative body that exists which is too good to massage their own numbers in order to cast themselves in the best possible light.
I assume that the increase comes at the cost of higher overall enrollment. But if the increase comes as the cost of steady enrollment, then you haven't really fixed any problem or addressed any concern. All you've really demonstrated is that it is possible to coerce ratios in your fixed system. If all you want to accomplish is a certain ratio, there are proven more direct and easier ways to do it. For that reason the experiment would be worthless.
It is a relevant piece of information to know. Me, I'm an optimist.
Another relevant piece of information is their graduation rates and their post degree employment rates within the industry. They probably have those stats and make a continuing effort to keep them updated. But that's no where near the focus of the article. That article is more along the lines of "see! Girls ARENT too dumb to do this!" Well, no. No one really claims that they are. Except arrogant assholes.
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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I never defended that. I agree that it's ridiculous to apparently only let female professors take students to the conference.
It's not that thin a line. Students who already know a lot about the subject and are more than willing to display this knowledge every chance they get are pretty easy to distinguish from students who are learning and want to demonstrate that they are paying attention. It benefits the class as a whole to reduce the amount of showboating that goes on, both because it reduces the discouragement students might feel when comparing themselves to the class pro and because it provides more opportunities for everyone else to demonstrate their learning.
I take issue with your use of "neutral". What makes you think the way things were before were "neutral"? It's entirely possible that what we took for granted as the norm was inherently gender biased and already pandered to specific groups. Maybe these changes actually created a more "neutral" environment in which anybody could feel welcome.
Honestly, even though the point was to get more females interested in computer science, most of the changes they made are textbook ways of creating a better learning environment for a larger variety of students. Considering how flawed the education system is, seeing anyone take proactive steps to increase quality of education is a good thing.
Or, you know, maybe we're just shifting away from coddling the inflated egos of those who want everyone in class to know how super-smart they are. If they can't handle a class where they can't be the star of the show, I wonder what kind of future they have in any field that isn't going to celebrate them due to how awesome they think they are.
Hi, welcome to Rerolled.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Mist is going to crucify me but I'll tell you my opinion as to why females don't like CS or engineering - your work product is often objectively right or wrong, and they don't like to be confronted. Females will "generally" avoid confrontational situations, which is why they aren't that into competitive activities the same as men. They're all about "lets all be friends and play together" in sports (speaking in massive generalities here, there are competitive women of course) while men are like "I WILL CRUSH THAT FUCKING NOOB" even if they are perfectly willing to go have a beer with him after the game. In CS and other engineering disciplines men will mock each others designs, compete to see who can do it better, and generally give each other shit 24/7. Its just what we do. Females don't like that. They don't like the competitive environment. Look at what they're doing in this "initiative" it just bears out what I'm saying. They're making people be quiet and not be competitive.
Which is fine in school, what are they going to do when they hit that first job, some experienced dev gives them a task and tells them to fucking figure out and don't bother him, and then mocks the result when it isn't right? We all went through this.
Which is fine in school, what are they going to do when they hit that first job, some experienced dev gives them a task and tells them to fucking figure out and don't bother him, and then mocks the result when it isn't right? We all went through this.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Haha, spoken like a teacher. You know what careers celebrate the stars of the show? ALL OF THEM. Have you ever earned a real living?
khalid
Unelected Mod
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Why you gotta bash teachers bro?
I mean, bashing lawyers would be too easy, so I'll just say, lets all get along!
khalid
Unelected Mod
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I don't necessarily disagree, but shutting down "showoffs" in class is pretty basic fucking teaching. So having a huge initiative and stressing that seems somewhat weird to me and makes me think it could easily spill over to just stopping any enthusiastic participation.
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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All the more reason why they should tone down the "I know! I know!" while still in school. You have a great grasp of the subject? Fantastic! Stick with it and you are all but assured success. Since the point of this class is toteachthings to people who don't necessarily grasp it quite as well as you do, and since they are both discouraged and prevented from participating by your inflated ego, the class as a whole benefits from you toning it down a bit.
Like I said,
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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Or, it could just be a reminder to teachers to do their jobs properly. It is far from a career where people don't get lazy and take the path of least resistance. Taking aside a showoff and giving him/her a reassuring speech meant to reduce their dominating of class time is significantly more work than just choosing whatever hand is up to answer a question, even if it's almost always the same hand.
iannis
Musty Nester
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Nah man, you turn it into that in some double-reverse-suplex move of ultimate retardation.
I've gone over the top asshole on mist before. I've done it in this very thread, recently in the post counts. And if you were REALLY dumb you could look at that conversation and think I was being a dick to her because she sports a vagina. It is my belief that she will sometimes spout indefensible circular bullshit and in order to justify it will pervert good methods into ignorance. And I simply have no patience for it, and it makes me rage.
And after I'm done raging I come to the following conclusion: Mist is a very good troll, and she's not as stupid as she sometimes pretends to be. There's no way that she actually acts on some of these beliefs, but shedoesunderstand these beliefs.
She's just winding me up and giggling to herself that she found a way to manipulate me.
That's what women FUCKING DO.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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I don't disagree that teachers should shut down showoffs. They should absolutely do this.