Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Cad · Sep 18, 2014

As an internet publisher, she earns the internet criticism and flames. The real-life doxxing and calling her dad etc is over the line.

Arbitrary · Sep 18, 2014

Tanoomba, are you submitting articles to Cracked now?

4 Ways Gamers Still Suck at Dealing With Women | Cracked.com

You mind not using "we" so much there buddy?

Tanoomba · Sep 18, 2014

Arbitrary_sl said:
Tanoomba, are you submitting articles to Cracked now?

4 Ways Gamers Still Suck at Dealing With Women | Cracked.com

You mind not using "we" so much there buddy?

Outstanding article, thanks for the link!

Some highlights:

There's a baffling disconnect where gamers want to be taken seriously, but they also want to be able to call Quinn (or Anita Sarkeesian, or Brianna Wu, or Jennifer Hepler, or the woman who just chainsawed them in half in Gears of War) insults that the average convicted sex offender would consider over the line. They want to have their asshole cake and eat it too.

Well, guess what? If you can't talk like an adult, then you have to keep sitting at the kids table. But I'll let you in on another secret: it's not hard to talk like a sane adult human. Just ask yourself this simple question: "Would what I'm about to say get me yelled at or punched in my stupid fucking face if I said it in real life?" If your answer is yes, try to find a way to make the same point while using fewer slurs.

The problem is that guys who have never faced discrimination because of their hobby or profession really do believe that this obscure ethical non-breach is the bigger issue. After all, it's a bigger issue to them. And I understand where they're coming from, because as a white, straight, Adonis I have never faced insults because of my interests, which leaves me free to focus my time and effort on other important issues, like when the fuck are we getting a new TIE Fighter game already?

But for women and men who are less selfish than I am, the continued harassment of women is obviously a bigger concern than an indie gaming sex "scandal."

A minority of loud, male, and probably young gamers want to dictate what the rest of the gaming community talks about, because in their minds they know what's important and best for everyone. But by protesting one "problem" in the dumbest way imaginable, they reminded everyone of a much, much bigger problem, yet they're baffled as to why everyone wants to talk about the latter instead of what's important to them as white dudes.

After all, what's more likely? A minor controversy about an obscure woman (in an industry where a major publication once fired a reporter because a large developer and advertiser was unhappy with a review) has finally proven that the gaming media has problems that we need to speak out against? Or a bunch of sexually frustrated and generally terrible human beings saw the chance to insult and harass a woman without reprisal because they could do it under the guise of having a valid cause?

I didn't write the article (duh), but you're right, these are a lot of the exact points I have brought up in discussions here. It's nice to knowCrackedhas my back.

fanaskin · Sep 18, 2014

see they think that shit typed on the internet is like saying it to someones face.

Tanoomba · Sep 18, 2014

An asshole saying stupid shit isn't any less of an asshole saying stupid shit because he's doing it on the internet.

People are assholes online because they assume there are no consequences. Well, apparently there are. Act like a sexist asshole troll and groups of people will highlight and criticize your asshole behavior. Do you have a problem with this, Fana? Do you think "free speech" should mean "speech without consequences"? Or do you think we should just ignore these assholes? If that's the case, I think that's a very easy stance for you to take as a white guy who has never (and will never) been on the receiving end of Sarkeesian/Quinn level harassment.

fanaskin · Sep 18, 2014

What consequences does the mob face exactly? the ire of people they dislike anyways?

It would be a sadder life If I couldn't call you a fuckwad tanoomba and since were all equal anyone can be that fuckwad.

Whidon · Sep 18, 2014

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
Cracked is such a terrible fucking site now. 90% of the articles don't even try to have humor anymore. Another site taken over by SJW agenda pushing.

The SJW thing really is like a cancer that attacks online community's. For some reason old comedy sites like cracked and something awful seem very vulnerable.

A big reason why I read this board as it's one of the few old communities i've seen that has not been infected yet.

fanaskin · Sep 18, 2014

Whidon1_sl said:
The SJW thing really is like a cancer that attacks online community's. For some reason old comedy sites like cracked and something awful seem very vulnerable.

I noticed something from a podcast that had louis ck talking in it, he said that he noticed on his twitter people with blogs like tumbler build up a fanbase of like 1,000 or so followers and they go on other peoples twitters and make some kind of demand based on their ideology, if they don't get what they want their like 1,000 follower harass crew blows up their twitter basically echo chambering whatever the tumbler blog person wanted. That technique would also crossover some to internet sites in general.

Lithose · Sep 18, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Act like a sexist asshole troll and groups of people will highlight and criticize your asshole behavior. Do you have a problem with this, Fana? Do you think "free speech" should mean "speech without consequences"? Or do you think we should just ignore these assholes? If that's the case, I think that's a very easy stance for you to take as a white guy who has never (and will never) been on the receiving end of Sarkeesian/Quinn level harassment.

Tanoomba_sl said:
I gotta admit, I was a bit annoyed at how the article started, but it was actually a pretty good read.

This is pretty on-balls accurate (for feminism, I could give a shit about the tea party). The "vocal misguided" (see Fig.1 below) do way more harm than they could ever even imagine, since whether they intend to or not they become the "official" face of their movement, as selected by their opponents who highlight all of their flaws and perpetuate the idea that they are the norm in their category. And then people like the majority of this board's readership watch the videos and chuckle at the memes and dismiss the feminist movement as a misguided joke at best and a society-dismantling terrorist movement at worst, based entirely on the impression given by well-intentioned but ultimately terribly confused individuals. If you guys gave enough of shit you'd probably realize most of you are already feminists.

Fig.1: This is not feminism.

Tanoomba_sl said:
.....the problem is exclusively radical feminists and not feminism. As bad as some of the most active and radical feminists can be (and apparently, they can be pretty bad), dismissing the entire feminist movement because of them is foolish and counter-productive. As I've already said, we should by all means point out the harm that can be and is being done by radical feminism. On the other hand, there sure as fuck is such thing as patriarchy and, as a society, we should still be striving to address real systematized inequalities. Luckily, that's what feminism is trying to do. I mean, even if "reasonable" feminists disbanded and created a new group with a new name, eventually that group would also be hijacked by well-intentioned but terribly confused individuals. The solution seems to be to acknowledge that the radical feminists do not accurately represent the tenets of feminism while still respecting that feminism has valid reasons for existing and reasonable goals that benefit society as a whole. That, of course, would require logical thought, which is a rarity even on this board, but I don't think we can blame feminism for stupid people.

Earlier in this thread, when multiple examples of Feminists acting like belligerent assholes were trotted out--you claimed it was unfair to ignore underlying issues, and disregard a group of people due to a radical few. But now you support doing just that to the many, many gamers who are really voicing their concerns about the industry they enjoy being railroaded in, ironically, the same way moderate feminism gets railroaded because of the hysterics of rad-fems (But, as I explain below, Gamers aren't an "ideology"--so, I believe it's actually worse for them to simply be lumped in with the radical portion). Just look at how the Cracked article both acknowledges the fact that Journalists in the industry have been fired due to bad reviews AND completely dismisses the fact that this could be anything other than the sexism--all because of some very sparse evidence, produced by a handful of anonymous people on the internet (Which, as we went over--happens to all people in the industry. ) The fact is, man--that nearly everyone in the public eye deals with a certain population of very frightening individuals; such is the nature of sociopaths. But is it fair to prevent all criticism of an individual due to that?

Also Fana does have a point about thenatureof the comments being in an online forum. And you know what? Against men? Kotaku sees that difference...here is what they had to say when Jack Thompson, the famous "video games make people violent" lawyer--had tons of death threats on the comment sections at Kotaku. Not only did Kotaku NOT "disallow" the posting of said comments, it ALSO refused to take them down when Thompson said he felt threatened. (Now, I remember this. I was still working at school at the time, and I read about this guy a lot--Anita's harassment isn't half as bad....However, this guy was a much bigger douche, so meh.)....Compare that to Anita; in which most of her articles, when posted, have "monitored" comments, that need to be approvedbeforethey are put up.

Context matters. That being said? Should these fringe group of assholes be taken to task for their inability to control their mouths?Of course.We should not condone, or allow threats--and gamers themselves need to self police these dip shits. But at the end of the day, context does matter. And I don't think this extreme minority of rather impotent anonymous neckbeards should poison the well for all gamers. (And, btw, I'm a little more lenient with "Gamers" than "Feminism"--since Gamers have so many sub factions that are literally only connected by the thinnest of membranes--you could hardly consider them an Ideology. However, at the core, they DO kind of suffer from the same problem--and that problem is literally anyone can say "I'm a XYZ"--and then proceed to be a dip shit and make everyone in the group look bad, so meh.)

Whidon · Sep 18, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
I noticed something from a podcast that had louis ck talking in it, he said that he noticed on his twitter people with blogs like tumbler build up a fanbase of like 1,000 or so followers and they go on other peoples twitters and make some kind of demand based on their ideology, if they don't get what they want their like 1,000 follower harass crew blows up their twitter basically echo chambering whatever the tumbler blog person wanted. That technique would also crossover some to internet sites in general.

This is pretty much spot on, it shows another problem with the SJWs. They take the internet way too seriously as evidenced by that article. A big reason why the internet was so enticing to me back in the 90s and early 00s was that people could, and would do and say things they would not in real life. It was amazingly liberating even if it was/is often nasty.

Another problem is SJW types tend to be shut in types that have no lives outside the internet (Because the outside world is too oppressive right?). Hence, these people tend to get positions of power on websites, like mods, writers ect..

Sebudai · Sep 18, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
An asshole saying stupid shit isn't any less of an asshole saying stupid shit because he's doing it on the internet.

People are assholes online because they assume there are no consequences. Well, apparently there are. Act like a sexist asshole troll and groups of people will highlight and criticize your asshole behavior. Do you have a problem with this, Fana? Do you think "free speech" should mean "speech without consequences"? Or do you think we should just ignore these assholes? If that's the case, I think that's a very easy stance for you to take as a white guy who has never (and will never) been on the receiving end of Sarkeesian/Quinn level harassment.

It goes both ways. Anita Sarkeesian is being an asshole online, and now she's experiencing the consequences of that behavior. Clearly some of the reactions to her behavior have crossed way over the line of what's acceptable, but the majority of the criticism she has received is appropriate and warranted. White guys who behave like Sarkeesian can and have received a similar level of harassment.

Phazael · Sep 18, 2014

SJWs are the prohibition activists of the modern age, taking advantage of a relatively new and largely (by older generations) poorly understood social medium to push a severe agenda. The blogosphere gives them a pass because technically literate people are generally liberal and fighting against the vocal psycho SJW crowd would look like being conservative/establishment to outside observation. Plus vaginas. Basically the prohibition movement died when people realized that none of the fugly women behind it were going to put out anyhow and the same sort of realization has to happen with the SJW movement. Once the internet community realizes that Mist and ?women like her are remorseless fun hating miserable cunts who only want to take a giant shit on everyone else's joy, people will stop bending over for them.

Phazael · Sep 18, 2014

RE Lithose and Seb's comments-
The internet is the last bastion of unbridled free speech, for better or worse. Fuck with it at our own peril, is how I feel. Even though there are people who I vehemently disagree with, the mere knowledge that those opinions even exist is an important function of society, going forward.

Having said that, I have never really been that big on anonymity online (see RP thread for examples of me giving zero fucks) because I believe the ultimate result of the information age will be that privacy will cease to exist, so why be anything other than your genuine self online? I firmly believe in the rights of people to say rude shit online free from punishment, but I also feel their identity should be known so that when a person embraces a morally or ethically repugnant stance that they are readily identifiable for such.

In short, feel free to say what you want, but all things have consequences.

gremlinz273 · Sep 18, 2014

Listen you ignorant peasants, let me tell you about the shitting on the floor test. You are dating a very attractive girl, law degree, bright future ahead of her, dream girl, and you seem to be getting along. A date or two and she comes home with you and you have wild passionate sex that night. In the morning, you notice there is a pile of shit, human feces, on the floor, and this girl is blaming the cat.

What do you do? Do you go along with it to protect her dignity in the hopes of a future relationship? Or do you shove her nose in it?

That is exactly what is going on with this rape bullshit.

Eidal · Sep 18, 2014

Phazael_sl said:
RE Lithose and Seb's comments-
The internet is the last bastion of unbridled free speech, for better or worse. Fuck with it at our own peril, is how I feel. Even though there are people who I vehemently disagree with, the mere knowledge that those opinions even exist is an important function of society, going forward.

Having said that, I have never really been that big on anonymity online (see RP thread for examples of me giving zero fucks) because I believe the ultimate result of the information age will be that privacy will cease to exist, so why be anything other than your genuine self online? I firmly believe in the rights of people to say rude shit online free from punishment, but I also feel their identity should be known so that when a person embraces a morally or ethically repugnant stance that they are readily identifiable for such.

In short, feel free to say what you want, but all things have consequences.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Phazael again.

Tanoomba · Sep 18, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
What consequences does the mob face exactly? the ire of people they dislike anyways?

Well that's what you were just complaining about, wasn't it? You had a problem with people treating online comments as though they were "said to someone's face". Well, that's the consequence. People aren't going to pretend you're not an asshole because you're hiding behind internet anonymity. Your embarrassing and shitty behavior will be highlighted and (justifiably) heavily criticized.

Edit: Not "your" referring to you specifically, obviously.

Mario Speedwagon · Sep 18, 2014

The E-mails That Prove Video Games Journalism Must be Reformed

I wonder how much longer they'll try to pretend that the criticism of journalism is still just a cover for harassing poor women they need to swoop in to protect.

Arbitrary · Sep 18, 2014

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
The E-mails That Prove Video Games Journalism Must be Reformed

I wonder how much longer they'll try to pretend that the criticism of journalism is still just a cover for harassing poor women they need to swoop in to protect.

Sebudai · Sep 18, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Well that's what you were just complaining about, wasn't it? You had a problem with people treating online comments as though they were "said to someone's face". Well, that's the consequence. People aren't going to pretend you're not an asshole because you're hiding behind internet anonymity. Your embarrassing and shitty behavior will be highlighted and (justifiably) heavily criticized.

Edit: Not "your" referring to you specifically, obviously.

Swindling people, slandering people, and fabricating problems for personal gain are all far more offensive to me than anonymous insults on the internet. Anita Sarkeesian is just experiencing the consequences of her deplorable behavior.

Tanoomba · Sep 18, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
Earlier in this thread, when multiple examples of Feminists acting like belligerent assholes were trotted out--you claimed it was unfair to ignore underlying issues, and disregard a group of people due to a radical few. But now you support doing just that to the many, many gamers who are really voicing their concerns about the industry they enjoy being railroaded in

False. Nothing I said even implies that.

Lithose_sl said:
Just look at how the Cracked article both acknowledges the fact that Journalists in the industry have been fired due to bad reviews AND completely dismisses the fact that this could be anything other than the sexism

I don't know what you're talking about here. One of the points made was that there ARE real problems in gaming journalism, but
a) A lot of these problems didn't get much attention because they didn't involve a woman and/or who she was fucking, and
b) The way these problems are being addressed by sexist assholes is actively creating another problem, a problem that has gotten a lot bigger for a lot of people and which is now (justifiably) being treated as its own issue, much to the dismay of both the sexist assholes in question and the entirely reasonable people who'd like to discuss the real issues with gaming journalism.
The article by Zoe Quinn also mentions the legitimate issues in gaming journalism and how those are being ignored in favor of making an example out of her, by the way.

Lithose_sl said:
The fact is, man--that nearly everyone in the public eye deals with a certain population of very frightening individuals; such is the nature of sociopaths. But is it fair to prevent all criticism of an individual due to that?

Of course not. But when certain people are disproportionately targeted for hate campaigns, that becomes its own issue. I've seen repeatedly that it bothers you that what you consider the "real" issues are ignored or dismissed in order to focus on what you apparently consider to be harmless trolls. But see, these trolls are a problem, whether you choose to believe it or not. The worse they act, the more attention they are going to get. I've said it before, but if you want legitimate criticism to get the attention it deserves, we need to stop the sexist assholes from hijacking these topics with their assholery.

Lithose_sl said:
Should these fringe group of assholes be taken to task for their inability to control their mouths?Of course.We should not condone, or allow threats--and gamers themselves need to self police these dip shits.

How? When I point out someone being a sexist asshole here, I'm dragged across the coals. Frankly, I have zero problem with mainstream media (or any media) taking a moment to point out that unacceptably shitty behavior is unacceptably shitty.

Lithose_sl said:
But at the end of the day, context does matter. And I don't think this extreme minority of rather impotent anonymous neckbeards should poison the well for all gamers.

I don't think they are. I'm a hardcore gamer, I live and breathe gaming, and I never once, in thatCrackedarticle or any other, ever felt that I was being unfairly judged or categorized. I think it's always made extremely clear that these articles are talking about the sexist assholes of the gaming community, so I have no reason to be offended. No reasonable people believes all gamers are sexist assholes, just as no reasonable people believe all feminists are screaming angry redheads.

Like I said in my quotes from your last post, I'm totally OK with pointing out that shitty feminists are shitty. Go ahead and criticize their ignorance to your heart's content. My problem is with assuming these idiots somehow represent their movement when they flat-out don't. Similarly, we should not hesitate to point out when sexist asshole gamers are shitting up whatever "cause" they choose to use as an excuse to be hateful, misogynist pricks. I never said they represented gamers or gaming as a whole, and I don't think any of the articles I linked did either. But their behavior has become a problem, and right now their favorite targets are women. Just because these women may be deserving of legitimate criticism, it doesn't mean these assholes haven't become an issue. Whether or not you believe this is (or should be) a "real" issue, it is.

I'll make this suggestion for the second time: If you have legitimate issues you'd like to discuss, whether it be about gaming journalism or the portrayal of women in video games, let's discuss it. I think those would be fantastic discussions. You're upset that the media is putting so much attention on internet assholes, but you don't hesitate to speak extensively about just that every chance you get. You're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing the media for doing. Be the change you want to see, Lith.

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