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Sebudai

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I did not quote split first. And to be fair, this whole conversation would be infracted on sites like EJ. In the end, Tan split my post up under 5 categories. I responded with one quote each. I almost always respond in blocks if I can, but if scissors are going to be used on the issue; I'll clean it up as much as possible, but I like the respond to everything (In the last post I reduced the replies by more than half; he split it over 11 times I believe :p.) So I believe I have it under control; by all means though, I'd prefer single or at most 2-3 block replies.
Yeah I prolly shouldn't have lumped you in there. Scrolling back I don't see you quoting out and responding to each individual assertion in a post no matter how innocuous or irrelevant it is to the overall point like he's doing. I often cut out all of the irrelevant shit in his posts (which usually trims it down by about half) before I respond to them, and he still manages to turn around and respond to my response with half a dozen quotes. Are you shittin' me, Tanoomba? Inundating me with irrelevant shit to respond to might annoy me, but it's not going to help you win the argument, bro.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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I don't know why people are still engaging with tanoob. I mean you wouldn't engage with Muslim fanatic or westboro baptist church.
 

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
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He claims that male gamers, in general, can't talk until the minority is taken care of. Here is a quote from your article. *************After all, what's more likely? A minor controversy about an obscure woman (in an industry where a major publication once fired a reporter because a large developer and advertiser was unhappy with a review) has finally proven that the gaming media has problems that we need to speak out against?Or a bunch of sexually frustrated and generally terrible human beings saw the chance to insult and harass a woman without reprisal because they could do it under the guise of having a valid cause?*****************
Nope.
Cracked article_sl said:
But as much as I hate to say it, I think those comments exemplify, if not a majority, then one incredibly fucking loud minority. Go to any video, article, or forum discussion about Quinn, and in most cases you'll find that the balance weighs heavily toward the dickwads.
I don't know how you can keep missing the point of this article, unless it's intentional.
As for that "What's more likely?" quote, here's what he's saying: The lid has already been blown off the fact that questionable practices occur in gaming journalism. We've known this for years, there have been examples far more egregious than anything involving Zoe Quinn that have already occurred. They've gotten their fair share of attention (at the time, at least), but now people are acting like the Zoe Quinn scandal is what tipped the scales and exposed the industry as the corrupt web of lies and deceit it is. So yes, there are questionable practices in gaming journalism. And yes, it's entirely likely that the reason the Zoe Quinn scandal has gotten so much attention in particular is because "a bunch of sexually frustrated and generally terrible human beings saw the chance to insult and harass a woman without reprisal because they could do it under the guise of having a valid cause".
Again, the article doesn't say that you, specifically, fall into this category, nor is it referring to gamers as a whole. The author is a gamer himself and goes out of his way to point out how he is mature enough to be able to discuss such topics without sinking to sexist asshole language, something that a huge number of people (even if they are a minority of gamers) are not able to do. That's the problem.
And did he say we bear responsibility? No, he said that the sexist asshole brigade has an iron shield. Anyone that criticizes them will be targeted, mocked, harassed and made an example of (see: Phil Fish). He's drawing attention to the fact that, unlike people like you and I, these people can't be dealt with reasonably. He then went on to make several not unreasonable suggestions about actual things that could be done. Again, this is clear to anyone reading the article without a "they're out to get me" mentality.

If you want Tan, I can spend an hour tomorrow when I have more time and dig up tons of quotes like this, about Gamersgate, labeling the whole movement in this fashion. You KNOW they are out there. Can YOU dig up some articles from major gaming sites that address any of the legitimate concerns--outside of Escapist (Which admitted to it)? If you can't, then I'm not sure how you believe the argument is not being "framed" under a specific narrative. And what's worse is that you admit that said narrative is from a MINORITY of gamers, you even highlighted how he said that in the article. So why are they receiving a lion's share of the exposure if the debate is NOT being framed this way?
Nope, the articles you're talking about (of which I've read several) are not framing the issue of unscrupulous journalism as a sexist issue. They're treating the actions of sexist assholes as a sexist issue. Again, you seem to keep forgetting that these sexist assholes, whether you like it or not, ARE the issue now. If you think that the media is not paying enough attention to unscrupulous journalism, fine. They write for their audience, and right now they have a bad guy to rally against with their more than willing readership. And that's not bullshit or fluff, it's a legit issue that deserves attention. You don't like how much attention it's getting, clearly, but this is how mainstream media has operated since the dawn of mainstream media. Sarkeesian and Quinn had nothing to do with that.

Yes, dude, in 6 years the societal shift has been so profound that the issue has changed. YES. Why was Thompson targeted? because he was attacking the gaming industry in a ridiculous and completely unfounded witch hunt. Why were Sarkeesian and Quinn targeted? because they were WOMEN. I already know you cringed when reading that, but that's the difference. Do some people have legitimate criticism about Sarkeesian and Quinn? Of course! But when you see any unmoderated comments section filled with the most hateful, disgusting, misogynistic shit you've ever seen, it's crystal fucking clear what type of people crawled out of the woodwork to try to make themselves heard here. And the fact that it's so easy to get away with has encouraged closet misogynists to come out guns blazing, essentially creating a community of sexist assholes who feed off each other and prevent valid discussion from taking place about any issue involving gender. This wasn't the case six years ago, certainly not on the scale it is now. You asked me to address the disparity, I addressed it.

You complain that mainstream media is not giving enough attention to actual ethical breaches in journalism. That's what mainstream media does. It would be almost ridiculous to expect otherwise. The mainstream media's coverage of several issues far more significant than this has been appallingly lacking for years. The only reason THIS disparity is getting so much attention is because a lot of people are looking for something they can criticize as being "sexist". Instead of the more likely "mainstream's gonna mainstream" explanation (remember Occam's razor?), people want to portray the media as unfairly giving a break to precious lady snowflakes because they'd rather "white knight" (ugh) and bend over backwards to keep the ladies happy.

When I say you should "be the change you want to see", I'm suggesting you spend less energy complaining about legit criticism not getting enough attention and actually just talk about the legit criticism. I remind you that, even if the mainstream media is lacking in coverage of certain topics (which has always been the case, always), this is the internet. By exerting the bare minimum of effort (something we all do and we expect any reasonable person to do) these legitimate criticisms can be found and discussed openly and maturely. You're not going to single-handedly restructure mainstream media by whining about troll coverage. The mainstream sites are focusing on sexism gone rampant, because sexism IS running rampant. As much evidence as you think there is that there are ethical breaches in journalism, there is exponentially more that shows that sexist assholes are having a field day making things shittier for literally everyone except sexist assholes. It doesn't matter that they're in the minority. We can't just brush them aside and pretend they're not there because they actively poison every conversation they become a part of. This is the issue now. Get over it.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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Dictating to the audience what you want "the issue" to be, is the problem to begin with, you're part of the problem tanoomba.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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113,036
Nope.I don't know how you can keep missing the point of this article, unless it's intentional. Again, the article doesn't say that you, specifically, fall into this category, nor is it referring to gamers as a whole. The author is a gamer himself and goes out of his way to point out how he is mature enough to be able to discuss such topics without sinking to sexist asshole language, something that a huge number of people (even if they are a minority of gamers) are not able to do. That's the problem.
I've given you actual examples from the article illustrating the inclusion of "us" as gamers and sentiments about "our" problems. If you still want to believe he's somehow not pontificating on gamers themselves; that's your prerogative. However, just to go over once more....

4 WaysGamersStill Suck at Dealing With Women

WeWill Never Learn From Past Mistakes


We'reIncapable of Mature Conversations About Gender

Male GamersThink They Know What the Real Problem Is

We: 1.
nominative plural of I.
4.
(used to indicate a particular profession, nationality, political party, etc., that includes the speaker or writer)


Basic English Tan, come on now.



Yes, dude, in 6 years the societal shift has been so profound that the issue has changed. YES. Why was Thompson targeted?because he was attacking the gaming industry in a ridiculous and completely unfounded witch hunt. Why were Sarkeesian and Quinn targeted?because they were WOMEN. I already know you cringed when reading that, but that's the difference. Do some people have legitimate criticism about Sarkeesian and Quinn? Of course! But when you see any unmoderated comments section filled with the most hateful, disgusting, misogynistic shit you've ever seen, it's crystal fucking clear what type of people crawled out of the woodwork to try to make themselves heard here. And the fact that it's so easy to get away with has encouraged closet misogynists to come out guns blazing, essentially creating a community of sexist assholes who feed off each other and prevent valid discussion from taking place about any issue involving gender. This wasn't the case six years ago, certainly not on the scale it is now. You asked me to address the disparity, I addressed it.
How can your dissonance be so bad? So, claiming that violent games cause violence=witch hunt. Claiming that sexist games cause sexism=They were women! Yeah, no. As I showed, men get targeted to. You WANT to believe the reason is different because the METHOD of the trolls attack is different. Yes, the trolls against women use sexism and sexual violence rather than generic violence and denigrating comments. No, Tan, that does not mean the core reason for their attacks ARE different; that's just an assumption on your part. In reality, based off what we've seen in the past--the only thing we can assume is that these are troglodytes that are responding in their typical uncivil, abrasive ways--because they don't know how to form a cogent response when someone says something deserving of criticism. But the key here is that someone IS saying something that is deserving of criticism. Whether it's labeling the entire community as sexist pigs; or claiming video games cause men to be sexist, or violent. These retards go into action, and yes it's stupid. But they should not be a shield with which to defend against ALL the valid criticism that ALSO comes--Kotaku said PRECISELY this with Jack Thompson. (But, 6 years..I guess, even though I believe it's the same editor...lol)

Now; Should we target these assholes? Sure. But the media needs to stop referring to them as "we" or "gamers"--your own article above did that, and 4 posts later youREFUSEto believe he was implicating you, or me. Sohowobjective are you in all this; Tan? I can freely admit that some of this outrage is based on sexism; you will absolutely not budge on the fact that some of the coverage is ALSO sexist in nature (In the fact the women need to be "defended" or that all men share these qualities simply because we ALSO have dicks). So, given that you can't even discern "we" as an inclusion of you (While stating that the author was referring to himself as a gamer)--how well equipped are you to notice your bias?

You complain that mainstream media is not giving enough attention to actual ethical breaches in journalism. That's what mainstream media does. It would be almost ridiculous to expect otherwise. The mainstream media's coverage of several issues far more significant than this has been appallingly lacking for years. The only reason THIS disparity is getting so much attention is because a lot of people are looking for something they can criticize as being "sexist". Instead of the more likely "mainstream's gonna mainstream" explanation (remember Occam's razor?), people want to portray the media as unfairly giving a break to precious lady snowflakes because they'd rather "white knight" (ugh) and bend over backwards to keep the ladies happy.

When I say you should "be the change you want to see", I'm suggesting you spend less energy complaining about legit criticism not getting enough attention and actually just talk about the legit criticism. I remind you that, even if the mainstream media is lacking in coverage of certain topics (which has always been the case, always), this is the internet. By exerting the bare minimum of effort (something we all do and we expect any reasonable person to do) these legitimate criticisms can be found and discussed openly and maturely. You're not going to single-handedly restructure mainstream media by whining about troll coverage. The mainstream sites are focusing on sexism gone rampant, because sexism IS running rampant. As much evidence as you think there is that there are ethical breaches in journalism, there is exponentially more that shows that sexist assholes are having a field day making things shittier for literally everyone except sexist assholes. It doesn't matter that they're in the minority. We can't just brush them aside and pretend they're not there because they actively poison every conversation they become a part of. This is the issue now. Get over it.
Tan; before I respond to this--you do realize the mainstream media has certain procedures meant to deal with this, right? I want to know how much you understand print/TV/Radio media before I lambast you about my goals. My goals, this whole time, is for less bias--that does not mean I want some mainstream media press to swoop in and do stories. It means I wantactualgaming press to change. If you know how mainstream media does it, then you already know how to accomplish that.

And no, I won't "get over it"--wanting transparency and clear, ethical conduct--without a squelching of the exchange of ideas, even if those ideas are repugnant--is NOT a bad thing. It is one of the core values of Journalism (Seriously, it's in their ethical code.) So no, I'm not going to "feel bad" about demanding it.
 

gremlinz273

<Bronze Donator>
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Listen you ignorant peasants, let me tell you about the shitting on the floor test. You are dating a very attractive girl, law degree, bright future ahead of her, dream girl, and you seem to be getting along. A date or two and she comes home with you and you have wild passionate sex that night. In the morning, you notice there is a pile of shit, human feces, on the floor, and this girl is blaming the cat.

What do you do? Do you go along with it to protect her dignity in the hopes of a future relationship? Or do you shove her nose in it?

That is exactly what is going on with this rape bullshit.
Well, apparently the answer for this forum is that you ignore the pile of shit, you pussified bitches.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
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Tanoomba's soft bigotry of low expectations of women

as seen in the military so it is with tanoomba and the internet
Women in military are hurt by the bigotry of low expectations, so help them by holding them to standards of excellence
(open incognito)
"My research exposed me to the idea of the "bigotry of low expectations," the idea that many educators in low-income, urban communities make excuses for their students, celebrating their most minor success (ie. attending school) while failing tohold them to thehigh standards of academic rigorto which their more wealthy, and generally more white peers, are held."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but whether you're black, white, or purple polkadotted, if you thought the standards in elementary/secondary school were high, you were probably just a fucking moron.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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it's entirely possible you went to a shitty school? I went to a private high school myself, they were teaching better things in sophomore year there then when I was a freshman in college.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but whether you're black, white, or purple polkadotted, if you thought the standards in elementary/secondary school were high, you were probably just a fucking moron.
So you disagree that in low-income, urban communities that educators commonly make excuses for their students and celebrate their most minor successes while failing to hold them to academic standards? When you compare the graduation rates, reading levels, and math proficiencies found in those locations versus the academic standards in place those standards are very high in relation. Very high.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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But that's not what it says. It says "high standards of academic rigor." That's fucking bullshit. It's not low vs high. It's low vs slightly less low.
 

Mario Speedwagon

Gold Recognition
<Prior Amod>
19,525
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But that's not what it says. It says "high standards of academic rigor." That's fucking bullshit. It's not low vs high. It's low vs slightly less low.
High schools predominantly attended by wealthy white people do have high standards of academic rigor. I'm not sure what point you think you're making.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Define high? It's still a curriculum designed for 80% or more of the class to pass. How can that possibly be high?

Maybe you just don't understand psychometrics, but let me explain: the vast majority of people are not very smart, in fact, they occupy a small range of intelligence on each side of the mean.

A school would have to be actively failing the vast majority of students to have 'high' standards. It would be like Seal Team 6 school where only 6 guys pass at a time.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
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So you disagree that in low-income, urban communities that educators commonly make excuses for their students and celebrate their most minor successes while failing to hold them to standards? Let's leave high off the table for now. Is there something about that statement you disagree with?

The high school I went to had college prep courses that, thinking back on it, were absurd amounts of work and required far more time and effort than the college courses they were preparing you for.
 

fanaskin

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intelligence =/= learning mist, it's entirely possible to suppress peoples intelligence by not teaching them things, otherwise school wouldn't work or wouldn't be necessary, you'd just be born with X iq and that would be the end of it. This is especially ironic coming from a person who made a passionate plea not that long ago about the need to dramatically increase the quality of education and something like that not helping or encouraging people's abilities was suppressing them.

You said something like "if even 1 voice was suppressed because they weren't given an oppertunity blah blah blah"