Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Mist_sl said:

Okay so we've agreed that there's no black and white solution.

But at some point you have to come down on some side of a grey line between protecting the rights of sociopaths vs the rights of vulnerable women. Given that we live in a democracy, which side of that divide do you think most people would come down on? Who do you think most of the people care about protecting more?

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Oh my god, solution to what? You haven't even defined what you think should be punished. You've wafted between extremes; one being behavior that is clearly rape but hard to prove, and the other being someone who is simply an asshole but not raping.

This? (In response to an example where the woman wasn't enjoying sex, but felt emotionally pressured to do it just to keep the guy interested.)

Mist_sl said:

What if she's not a grownup? What if he targeted her specifically because he, as a sociopath, identified her as not being emotionally mature enough to engage in a healthy reciprocal sexual relationship and knew he would be able to get away with abusing her for quite some time? Do we need to redefine adulthood in response to society wide changes in maturity level? Too many of the solutions in this thread reek of apologism and cover for sociopathic acts. No neurotypical person would engage in this kind of behavior (abusing someone just because they can get away with it.) At what point do you realize that people who's rights you're defending are the subset of people who do the most harm to society? The whole reason we have a legal system is to protect us from anti-social acts.

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Is not equal to...

Mist_sl said:

Also, in your blowjob example, is saying "give me a blowjob or I'll beat you so hard you can't get out the door for the next week" rape? She's technically consenting to the blowjob.

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This. These are not equal, but they are both examples of anti-social, perhaps even sociopathic behavior. But one is rape, the other is not.

Denaut_sl said:

You are misconstruing the argument. We want to protect the rights of all non-sociopaths from the machinations of sociopaths. That is, a sociopathic male is likely to ruin an innocent woman's life by the use of sexual force, whereas a sociopathic female might instead manipulate the justice system to use its monopoly on force to do it for her.

Granting carte blanche to one gender is a miscarriage of justice, because there are female psychopaths (although fewer).

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Exactly, and it's even beyond that. Men and women do not need to be sociopaths to go crazy during a break up. They can be healthy individuals who maybe have some emotional immaturity or trauma, and a separation causes a break down. This happens all the time. How many times has someone run to their friends to tell them what an asshole their Ex is, or every bad thing they've ever done (And often try to make their ex look like a monster.)

People in a break up are unreasonable. Even if it's a very healthy break up, between two mature people, there is bound to be some emotional trauma there--breaking up sucks. When you're young, or if you have previous emotional trauma, or psychological issues, this can force you to be very unreasonable, maybe to the point where you feel victimized. These are not the people we should give the power to, this is precisely why we have police and third parties. The potential for abuse HERE, is greater than the potential for abuse due to the very small group of sociopaths in society--because in THIS case? Sociopaths could also abuse this, but in addition, emotionally fragile people could ALSO abuse this. (There are ample examples of women feeling embarrassed about sexuality and actually making up a sexual encounter out of thin air. And I mean ctually making one up. A recent case had a girl who got caught looking at porn, who then said she was looking at it because her neighbor raped her and now she was interested in sex. It was all a fabrication though to cover for her shame in looking at porn. Men do this to, when they need to defend their fragile ego, so they make up sex stories. This is anecdotal, I know, but the point is even otherwise health emotional individuals can feel pressured into doing dumb things. We shouldn't "add" power to those people in the hopes they will perhaps smite a few bad people in their rampages.)

Good point, the words sociopath and psychopath aren't always quite right. A better term would be something like "anti-social behavior" as it more accurately represents the issue we are discussing.

Arbitrary_sl said:

I know there is more current data but I can't find it at the moment, this is the Innocence Project founders quoting FBI numbers -



There's a reason we don't just move right to hanging.

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And it should be noted--these were menconvicted. The vast majority of rape charges do not even have the evidence to go this far. And yet, feminists often believe that this is due to the system being anti-women, rather than the possibility that people can be emotionally unstable after a break up, and are susceptible to viewing events in distorted contexts. (Men too.) What also doesn't help is this constant need by society to try and make sex into this huge thing that absolutely must be meaningful or else something is very, very wrong.

More and more we are hearing women say "I didn't really dig the sex, and X advocate showed me that it was actually rape, and that's why....". This sounds noble on it's surface, but just reword that to be "I didn't like sex that much, and my pastor said that's because I'm going to hell. And that's why my soul felt bad."

Mist_sl said:

Okay so we've agreed that there's no black and white solution.

But at some point you have to come down on some side of a grey line between protecting the rights of sociopaths vs the rights of vulnerable women. Given that we live in a democracy, which side of that divide do you think most people would come down on? Who do you think most of the people care about protecting more?

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Are you even fucking serious? You do realize that most sociopaths aren't criminals right?

Mist_sl said:

And most women aren't raped. That's irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about sociopaths that are accused of a crime and women who are victims of rape.

My point is that you're going to end up coddling someone. If you're giving abusers legal wiggle room to abuse people, you're coddling sociopaths, and if you try to eliminate that wiggle room, you're coddling women. Which one do you always think society is going to want to coddle more, women or abusers?

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Because those populations are equal, and thus the coddling would give rise to equal amounts of collateral damage.

Mist_sl said:

My point is that you're going to end up coddling someone. If you're giving abusers legal wiggle room to abuse people, you're coddling sociopaths, and if you try to eliminate that wiggle room, you're coddling women. Which one do you always think society is going to want to coddle more, women or abusers?

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We're going in the direction you want. An unsubstantiated accusation is already enough to ruin someone's life. Are we just not going fast enough?

Mist_sl said:

My point is that you're going to end up coddling someone. If you're giving abusers legal wiggle room to abuse people, you're coddling sociopaths, and if you try to eliminate that wiggle room, you're coddling women. Which one do you always think society is going to want to coddle more, women or abusers?

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You keep ignoring this even though it has been brought up abunch of times, but false accusers are also abusers. They would be coddled by your suggestion that we completely relax burden of proof.

Accusing someone of rape simply because they were a bad boyfriend is still horrendous.