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Himeo

Himeo

Vyemm Raider
3,263
2,802
Mist_sl said:
Never did I say any of those things.

I said I want an atmosphere that is more amenable for real victims to make reports.
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So, what you really want is the power to convict whoever you want, whenever you want, without evidence other than your testimony.

Because that's what you're saying.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
No one denies there is a problem. As men we recognize that there is a problem. We analyze the root and interactions which create this problem, and we rationally come to the conclusion that it is an insoluble problem we are facing.

You seem to want to replace tyranny with tyranny. That is not empowerment, that is compounding an error.

What you want requires perfect knowledge. We do not and will not ever have that. Our legal proceedings are intentionally invasive. This is unfortunate in cases of rape, but there is only so much that can be done about that. As lithose pointed out, a great deal IS done about that. I honestly don't think you understand how devastating even the formalaccusationof rape is to a man. I don't think you do.

All you really seem to want is the power to rape men with other stronger men. At the core of it, that's what you keep suggesting as a solution. I don't think you're hateful and I don't think it's actually what you mean... but when you're talking about private courts andnoburden of proof... it's what you keep saying.

I'm sorry. I honestly am. But that's not a good idea even a little bit. It is a wholly terrible idea. I don't think it would even deliver any justice for the victims you're advocating for.
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,551
24,175
Iannis_sl said:
No one denies there is a problem. As men we recognize that there is a problem. We analyze the root and interactions which create this problem, and we rationally come to the conclusion that it is an insoluble problem we are facing.

You seem to want to replace tyranny with tyranny. That is not empowerment, that is compounding an error.

What you want requires perfect knowledge. We do not and will not ever have that. Our legal proceedings are intentionally invasive. This is unfortunate in cases of rape, but there is only so much that can be done about that. As lithose pointed out, a great deal IS done about that. I honestly don't think you understand how devastating even the formalaccusationof rape is to a man. I don't think you do.

All you really seem to want is the power to rape men with other stronger men. At the core of it, that's what you keep suggesting as a solution. I don't think you're hateful and I don't think it's actually what you mean... but when you're talking about private courts andnoburden of proof... it's what you keep saying.

I'm sorry. I honestly am. But that's not a good idea even a little bit. It is a wholly terrible idea. I don't think it would even deliver any justice for the victims you're advocating for.
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Really this is a complete and total misrepresentation of my position. What I actually want is more privacy protections for everyone involved. If the privacy of everyone involved is respected, there can't be any allegations that the victim is doing this for attention or slander.

My beef is with the social apparatus surrounding rape victims, not particularly with the courts themselves.

Lithose seems to think that the support system for rape victims is well developed and works properly, where I am saying it is not.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
I'm not sure of the practical limitations of increased privacy protections, but I also don't see that there's any obvious problem with it. I'm also not a lawyer.

It does seem like it would impede the absolute fuck out of any substantative rape investigation though. Not being snarky at all. It seems like it might actually make it HARDER to convict actual rapists.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
But yeah, I do think every single last one of us wins if we can find a way to filter out the more frivilous claims. It is a very serious thing. But rape... it's tricky. Who decides what's frivilous? I wouldn't want to be the one who codifies "just the tip".

It's not like physical property where you can put a dollar amount on it and tell all the dumb white trash to go over and bother the piss out of judge judy so that the others deal with actual problems. And it's not like intellectual property where none of it makes any damn sense and it's nearly all frivilous to begin with.

That's a very sticky widget innit.
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,551
24,175
You're still misunderstanding the problem.

The problem is that the system actively tries to discourage legitimate claims. There's no discouraging false claims, because those people are proactively lying and not undergoing psychological trauma.
 
Cad

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,916
51,065
Well, I don't see how Mist can blame people for being emotional about rape victims or claims when she won't even discuss a perfectly valid hypo that exemplifies the proof problem because it is "abominable" to compare rape to anything. Even though the hypo didn't compare rape to anything.

"Abominable"

lol
 
Cad

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,916
51,065
Mist_sl said:
You're still misunderstanding the problem.

The problem is that the system actively tries to discourage legitimate claims. There's no discouraging false claims, because those people are proactively lying and not undergoing psychological trauma.
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Have you ever tried to work with a female victim of a crime where the perpetrator is someone they know, and get them to bring charges?

Have you?
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
43,952
52,733
Mist_sl said:
You're still misunderstanding the problem.

The problem is that the system actively tries to discourage legitimate claims. There's no discouraging false claims, because those people are proactively lying and not undergoing psychological trauma.
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Except there's really no way to discourage false claims without actually discouraging legitimate claims, because victims could genuinely fear that if nobody believed their story, they would be punished as if they had made a false claim. That would be actively discouraging legitimate claims.

Everything you've described is the system passively discouraging legitimate claims. Which is still a major problem, but nowhere near what you've described it to be.

Cad_sl said:
Have you ever tried to work with a female victim of a crime where the perpetrator is someone they know, and get them to bring charges?

Have you?
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She's never had a close relationship in her life, so why would she be called upon to do that?
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,551
24,175
Gavinmad_sl said:
Except there's really no way to discourage false claims without actually discouraging legitimate claims, because victims could genuinely fear that if nobody believed their story, they would be punished as if they had made a false claim. That would be actively discouraging legitimate claims.

Everything you've described is the system passively discouraging legitimate claims. Which is still a major problem, but nowhere near what you've described it to be.



She's never had a close relationship in her life, so why would she be called upon to do that?
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What I'm saying is trying to discourage false claimsdoesn't work, because those people are lying and don't give a shit.

So when you try to discourage claims, the only people who get discouraged are the ones that are actually victims, because they are in a vulnerable mental state where they can get discouraged easily.
 
Cad

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,916
51,065
Mist_sl said:
What I'm saying is gun controldoesn't work, because those people are criminals and don't give a shit.

So when you try to control guns, the only people who get controlled are the ones that aren't criminals.
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Right?
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
43,952
52,733
Mist_sl said:
What I'm saying is trying to discourage false claimsdoesn't work, because those people are lying and don't give a shit.

So when you try to discourage claims, the only people who get discouraged are the ones that are actually victims, because they are in a vulnerable mental state where they can get discouraged easily.
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Except nobody is trying to discourage claims, false or legitimate. Unless you perjure yourself, there's a good chance you'll never get punished for a false rape claim. Case in point, Mattress girl. Not only has she never been punished for her false allegations, she's been allowed to continually harass her victim without any consequences.
 
Cad

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
25,916
51,065
Cad_sl said:
Have you ever tried to work with a female victim of a crime where the perpetrator is someone they know, and get them to bring charges?

Have you?
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Since I know you're not going to answer as it would undermine your point and you're just going to selectively reply to what you want to and then claim victory later...

I have worked with/talked to dozens of females in various stages of the domestic violence process where they have clearly been abused and will be again. Fully half of them regret ever calling the police in the first place, and if the DA didn't have her videotaped interview would have recanted it all already because reasons. You never really get a straight answer out of them. Another 20-30% are scared to testify because they already let the guy move back in and they're afraid he's going to beat her more if she testifies. The other portion don't care anymore because they ran the guy off and thats all they cared about anyway. They ain't got time for this.

This is with the police and the DA standing there begging the witness to just show up and testify so they can jail this piece of shit. These are slam dunk fucking cases.

Now lets put this together where you say "the system is rigged against women" and the "system discourages women to file charges" - can you explain how? Every interaction I've had, we have to drag the women kicking and screaming to the courthouse just to ID their boyfriend and get the ball rolling. But you paint it like the cops roadblock women at every turn.

All you're looking at is the cases with no proof where the cops tell the woman there's no proof, and act like thats just mansplaining her rights away and "discouraging women to file charges" ... As usual, you don't understand what you're talking about but you'revery upsetandsomething needs to be done.
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,551
24,175
Gavinmad_sl said:
Except nobody is trying to discourage claims, false or legitimate. Unless you perjure yourself, there's a good chance you'll never get punished for a false rape claim. Case in point, Mattress girl. Not only has she never been punished for her false allegations, she's been allowed to continually harass her victim without any consequences.
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The whole reason that schools have had to setup their bullshit kangaroo not-courts to investigate rapes is because the police departments that are supposed to do it are generally negligent.

The whole process is fucked and needs a rethink.
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
43,952
52,733
Mist_sl said:
The whole reason that schools have had to setup their bullshit kangaroo not-courts to investigate rapes is because the police departments that are supposed to do it are generally negligent.

The whole process is fucked and needs a rethink.
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The reason they've set up their bullshit not-courts is because they've caved to pressure from the SJWs prattling on about RAPE CULTURE and MUH SOGGY KNEES
 
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