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Mist · May 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
As I have never been a woman, I can't say I relate to your experience or what you are saying. I can tell you that I have never once had a sexual encounter that was the least bit rapey. Not even by Mist standards. I can tell you I asked my wife, mother, sister in law, and random women that I know this question and none of them have been victimized the way you're saying. Which is to say, none of them have been forcibly raped.

I also don't know what we can do about "social repercussions" . What the fuck can we do about that? I can tell people not to victim blame, except when the victim deserves blame. What the fuck good does that do? People are going to feel how they are going to feel. It's just like racism. You can tell people not to be racist, and they might smile at you and say yes, and then move across town because a black family moved in next door. What are you going to do about that? Pass thought crime laws? It's not illegal to move. It's not illegal to slut shame. It might be socially reprehensible, but THATS HUMANITY. No law we pass will change that.

What you're failing to get through (and we're failing to grasp, I guess, but it's much the same as if someone offers you a hot smelly turd... I will refuse to reach out and grab it) is that you're asking for *social change*. You want people to *act and think differently, whether or not their behavior is actually against the law.* Which is fine! I wish things were different in 100 ways as well. But you are couching this in terms of a *law enforcement* discussion. You're talking about cops and sentencing and etc while asking for SOCIAL CHANGE.

Get this into your head: The laws are being enforced. The laws are adequate. The change you're asking for has nothing to do with laws or prosecutors or the "system being rigged." It has everything to do with social perception, humans being terrible fucking witnesses to crimes, and perceived injustice because - gasp - the world isn't fair.

Cops are members of society, or at least they're supposed to be. Like a lot of modern criminology problems, this has a lot to do with cops and how rapes are reported and processed, and what the cops tell the victim and how they talk to the victim. You can say the laws are being enforced, but when the first line of enforcers don't really give a shit, it's hard to say that's true.

The laws may or may not be adequate. Like I said in this specific example, even with video evidence, I think it would be pretty easy for Ramsay to get off (lol rape joke.)

In my view, the entire system, which includes legal, social, political, media, etc systems, surrounding sexual assault is broken and needs to be deconstructed, first intellectually and then literally, and then put back together in a more sensible fashion.

We could pass laws making it illegal forthe mediato slut shame victims OR attack the perpetrator. If the media stopped slut shaming, maybe over a long enough timeline, people would stop doing it as much. We could pass laws making it illegal for the media to talk about pending rape cases at all.

You CAN change society by having conversations like this one. It just takes a whole lot of them. Silence certainly doesn't change anything, and there's a lot here that still needs to change.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Cops are members of society, or at least they're supposed to be. Like a lot of modern criminology problems, this has a lot to do with cops and how rapes are reported and processed, and what the cops tell the victim and how they talk to the victim. You can say the laws are being enforced, but when the first line of enforcers don't really give a shit, it's hard to say that's true.

If you really think the cops don't give a shit about sexual assault, I can see how you'd be salty. I mean thats not true, but lets not let truth get in the way of a conversation or anything.

Mist_sl said:
The laws may or may not be adequate. Like I said in this specific example, even with video evidence, I think it would be pretty easy for Ramsay to get off (lol rape joke.)

Oh yea? How many rape trials have you conducted? How many have you even seen? From what source does this bountiful knowledge of what would happen originate?

Mist_sl said:
In my view, the entire system, which includes legal, social, political, media, etc systems, surrounding sexual assault is broken and needs to be deconstructed, first intellectually and then literally, and then put back together in a more sensible fashion.

If you think so, then this is the case for all type of crimes and assaults. And what you're asking for is essentially more victimhood and protected victim status. You and Brianna can be pals while you "deconstruct" the victim society.

Mist_sl said:
We could pass laws making it illegal forthe mediato slut shame victims OR attack the perpetrator. If the media stopped slut shaming, maybe over a long enough timeline, people would stop doing it as much. We could pass laws making it illegal for the media to talk about pending rape cases at all.

Yea, why not have them show up for their weekly polygraph too so we can electrocute the ones who don't pass our thought crime litmus tests. That would be GREAT!

Mist_sl said:
You CAN change society by having conversations like this one. It just takes a whole lot of them. Silence certainly doesn't change anything, and there's a lot here that still needs to change.

Society will change when the consensus changes. When this whole "20% of college students are raped" nonsense gets blown up for the completely horseshit it is, there will be a shit ton of backlash.

Mist · May 18, 2015

The consensus needs to be that sexual assault is still unacceptably high. Fake statistics are bad, but so is denying a problem, denying people's experiences, sticking your head in the sand, etc.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
The consensus needs to be that sexual assault is still unacceptably high.

You can say that, but actual crime statistics show it to be declining (and has been for a long time) along with all other violent crime.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Declining from 'absurdly high' to 'still really high for such a serious crime.'

The "just stop talking about it and it will go away" argument is ridiculous.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Crime is bad, I don't disagree! It should definitely stop immediately.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Don't mock me. You know what I'm saying. If we don't keep talking about the failures of the system to protect both the accuser and the accused, nothing will ever improve.

And the SJWs are stupid too. They think if we don't depict women being victimized, it will stop happening, when that is very clearly the exact opposite of true.

AladainAF · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
We could pass laws making it illegal for the media to slut shame victims OR attack the perpetrator. If the media stopped slut shaming, maybe over a long enough timeline, people would stop doing it as much. We could pass laws making it illegal for the media to talk about pending rape cases at all.

And there went the first amendment.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Don't mock me. You know what I'm saying. If we don't keep talking about the failures of the system to protect both the accuser and the accused, nothing will ever improve.

And the SJWs are stupid too. They think if we don't depict women being victimized, it will stop happening, when that is very clearly the exact opposite of true.

All I can do is tell you the same thing I told my wife if she is ever put in a situation where she is being assaulted. Fight back just enough so that you get hit a bit without going so far that they fuck you up. Like just enough so its obviously nonconsensual. Because you will need proof.

I would tell any female or male the same thing.

Let me detour into a hypothetical I just thought up.

Lets say you go to Six Flags one day, and you enter the park and pay by credit card. However, the clerk intimidates you into giving him your wallet and he also takes the exact amount of the entry fee in cash. You say, fuck you, I will report this tomorrow. But you go ahead and go into the park and ride the rides, and the next day, you go to the police and tell them that the clerk took your cash. You know his name and everything. And the clerk admits to ringing you up that day and remembers you because he says you were an asshole. But the clerk admits to taking no cash, and there's no video evidence or witnesses except you and the clerk. And you obviously did pay, and enter the park and there is proof you paid by credit card.

What do you think the cops should do in that scenario? I mean we "know" because we wrote the hypo that the one thing happened, but to any unbiased outside observer, this was a normal transaction that happens every damn day. What should the cops do?

Agraza · May 18, 2015

In this scenario is the woman a smokin hot redhead?

I feel this is vital to determining the appropriate police response.

Also it's important she not have any jedi friends. I have family members that have been burned that way before.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Lets say you go to Six Flags one day, and you enter the park and pay by credit card. However, the clerk intimidates you into giving him your wallet and he also takes the exact amount of the entry fee in cash. You say, fuck you, I will report this tomorrow. But you go ahead and go into the park and ride the rides, and the next day, you go to the police and tell them that the clerk took your cash. You know his name and everything. And the clerk admits to ringing you up that day and remembers you because he says you were an asshole. But the clerk admits to taking no cash, and there's no video evidence or witnesses except you and the clerk. And you obviously did pay, and enter the park and there is proof you paid by credit card.

What do you think the cops should do in that scenario? I mean we "know" because we wrote the hypo that the one thing happened, but to any unbiased outside observer, this was a normal transaction that happens every damn day. What should the cops do?

That is ridiculous and has nothing to do with anything I've brought up.

Mist · May 18, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Society will change when the consensus changes. When this whole "20% of college students are raped" nonsense gets blown up for the completely horseshit it is, there will be a shit ton of backlash.

My whole argument is that this 'backlash' is already happening and has always been happening. Again, the system (the whole thing, not just the legal system) is so hostile to actual legitimate rape victims that what you get is mostly fake victims.

AladainAF · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
That is ridiculous and has nothing to do with anything I've brought up.

Actually, it does. His analogy is very clear and on point with the discussion, in my opinion.

Mist · May 18, 2015

AladainAF_sl said:
Actually, it does. His analogy is very clear and on point with the discussion, in my opinion.

It's actually a fucking abominable example because it implies the victim enjoyed the 'rides.'

I seriously think I'm done if people can look at that example and not be appalled at it's absurdity.

Cad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
It's actually a fucking abominable example because it implies the victim enjoyed the 'rides.'

I seriously think I'm done if people can look at that example and not be appalled at it's absurdity.

Oh no, she might be "done!" We should immediately ride to her rescue! Fuck you and your done. If you're done stop posting.

The hypo has nothing to do with enjoying anything. It illustrates perfectly the proof problem sexual assault faces in a sex-neutral hypo.

Mario Speedwagon · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
My whole argument is that this 'backlash' is already happening and has always been happening. Again, the system (the whole thing, not just the legal system) is so hostile to actual legitimate rape victims that what you get is mostly fake victims.

I'm almost certain that earlier in this thread you were saying that fake rape accusations are an irrational fear men have and it almost never happens. Now you're saying most rape reports are fake.

Ok. Do you have any admittedly biased anecdotal evidence to back this up?

Mist · May 18, 2015

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
I'm almost certain that earlier in this thread you were saying that fake rape accusations are an irrational fear men have and it almost never happens. Now you're saying most rape reports are fake.

No, most media reported rape reports are fake, because the media goes after the sensational and not the mundane, and the sensational almost never turn out to be true.

AladainAF · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
It's actually a fucking abominable example because it implies the victim enjoyed the 'rides.'

I seriously think I'm done if people can look at that example and not be appalled at it's absurdity.

He was talking about going into a park for fucks sake. The "rides" had nothing to do with his example, nor did he say they were "enjoyed". In fact, maybe that person hated the rides? Maybe he was intimidated into riding them? Who fucking knows, and who fucking cares, it has NOTHING to do with anything. The only point behind was the rides was that it was evidence that the person was, in fact, admitted into the location. The enjoyment (or not) of said rides had absolutely nothing whatsoever do to with anything.

Read it again:

Cad_sl said:
Lets say you go to Six Flags one day, and you enter the parkand pay by credit card. However,the clerk intimidates you into giving him your wallet and he also takes the exact amount of the entry fee in cash. You say, fuck you,I will report this tomorrow. But you go ahead andgo into the park and ride the rides, andthe next day, you go to the police and tell them that the clerk took your cash. You know his name and everything. Andthe clerk admits to ringing you up that dayand remembers you becausehe says you were an asshole. Butthe clerk admits to taking no cash, and there'sno video evidence or witnesses except you and the clerk. And youobviously did pay, and enter the park and there is proof you paid by credit card.

1. You pay by credit card.
2. You are intimidated by the clerk into giving the clerk your wallet, who then takes the same amount in cash.
3. You threaten to report the action tomorrow.
4. You enter the establishment.
5. The next day you tell the police the clerk took your money.
6. The clerk admits to ringing you up.
7. The clerk remembers because he said you were an asshole.
8. The clerk says they took no cash.
9. There is no video evidence or witnesses one way or the other except you and the clerk.
10. You did pay because you have the credit card receipt/record.

Those are the facts. What should the cop do? You're just trying to avoid answer the question because of the enjoyment of the rides? Seriously?

Mist · May 18, 2015

AladainAF_sl said:
He was talking about going into a park for fucks sake. The "rides" had nothing to do with his example, nor did he say they were "enjoyed". In fact, maybe that person hated the rides? Maybe he was intimidated into riding them? Who fucking knows, and who fucking cares, it has NOTHING to do with anything. The only point behind was the rides was that it was evidence that the person was, in fact, admitted into the location. The enjoyment (or not) of said rides had absolutely nothing whatsoever do to with anything.

Read it again:

1. You pay by credit card.
2. You are intimidated by the clerk into giving the clerk your wallet, who then takes the same amount in cash.
3. You threaten to report the action tomorrow.
4. You enter the establishment.
5. The next day you tell the police the clerk took your money.
6. The clerk admits to ringing you up.
7. The clerk remembers because he said you were an asshole.
8. The clerk says they took no cash.
9. There is no video evidence or witnesses one way or the other except you and the clerk.
10. You did pay because you have the credit card receipt/record.

Those are the facts. What should the cop do? You're just trying to avoid answer the question because of the enjoyment of the rides? Seriously?

This is in no way analogous to an actual rape. I don't know what fucking planet you're from.

Choosing to enter the establishment rather than reporting immediately effectively means you consented in this example. There wasn't a gate barring you from leaving, the clerk didn't make you ride the rides at gunpoint, etc. This example sucks. You are literally trivializing rape with a shitty example.

Gavinmad · May 18, 2015

Mist_sl said:
QUIT MANSPLAINING TO ME SHITLORD! MUH SOGGY KNEES!

ftfy

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