Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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Sebudai

Ssraeszha Raider
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There's probably a dozen other labels you could use for that pic. You're arbitrarily choosing vulnerable because it's politically charged and suits whatever agenda you have here. Vulnerable to me would be if she had a look of fear or uncertainty on her face. Does that woman look uncertain to you, Quaid? She's lookin' pretty fuckin' confident and in charge to me, bro.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Which woman looks like she could more effectively resist your sexual advances if that were her desire?
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Which woman looks like she could more effectively resist your sexual advances if that were her desire?
Vulnerability means open to injury...Why are you equating a woman requesting a penis being stuck inside of her as being open to injury? That's what Seb is saying. The language here is pretty specific about HOW feminists tend to look at sex. Male sexuality is so tied to violence in that jargon that a woman being open to having a dick in her is like France surrendering to the German Uber-men. (There is a reason as you get deeper into rad fem literature all PiV is rape and violence.)

People don't even realize how effective this language has been. (The irony too is where it all stems from--Medieval romance stories about Damsels in distress. Which were began by women in order to give novel characters something else to fight over. But feminists have been very successful in associating all female sexual displays with that kind of vulnerability, and its kind of silly.)
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Alright. Women aren't encouraged to present themselves as weak or vulnerable (physically, emotionally, intellectually) to attract and arouse potential sexual partners.

What ever was I thinking?
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Which woman looks like she could more effectively resist your sexual advances if that were her desire?
Neither one, dude. That's what they MAKE roofies for.

The one with the tats is cuter. She looks like she might have something to say.

I agree, your use of the word vulnerable is very narrow. In this case you're using it as a synonym for naked. I mean, I guess, but that's kinda so obvious that it's meaningless.
 

Sebudai

Ssraeszha Raider
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22,504
The woman in that picture could not be acting upon the viewer anymore blatantly unless she had a text bubble commanding us to come fuck her. She is the aggressor here. That is not vulnerable and weak. That is sexy and seductive. Stop staring at her ass and look at her eyes for a second.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Alright. Women aren't encouraged to present themselves as weak or vulnerable (physically, emotionally, intellectually) to attract and arouse potential sexual partners.

What ever was I thinking?
Sure they are, and that shit is fucking annoying.

It's even more annoying when they complain about it and still do it. Like the man that went to the doctor and said, "doc, it hurts when I press my ribs right here. What should I do?" And the doctor replied, "Well, first off you should stop poking you ribs with a pocketknife".
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Alright. Women aren't encouraged to present themselves as weak or vulnerable (physically, emotionally, intellectually) to attract and arouse potential sexual partners.

What ever was I thinking?
lol, I'm not saying that there are NOT subtexts of vulnerability in certain feminine romantic displays--we have plenty of media that does the Damsel thing--thatISfemale vulnerability (A chick watching a scary movie with you is her playing up her vulnerability when she clings to you or wants you to keep her "safe"). But wearing less clothes? Showing off skin? That's not vulnerability. I'm illustrating how there has been a definition creep--from very specific aspects of vulnerability (IE women need to be rescued by big strong men) to now ALL female sexuality being vulnerability, because all male sexuality is violence.

The truth is, wearing less clothes, before feminism? Used to be a sign of sexual aggression. It was a 180 of what Mist (And really modern people) describe it as, it was scandalous and proof you were NOT a vulnerable person in need of male protection. (Nor would a 'gentlemen' ever protect you).

Real vulnerability requires a subtext of being open to injury. Women DO use this, but its very specific--not all of sexual grooming and growth revolves around this. But like a lot of things, the jargon around academic circles took those very specific real things, and used those examples to try and explain other things. It's why I often compare feminism to a religion, just like a bunch of old dudes observed some funky stuff, then all agreed god did--and eventually god did everything. A bunch of "academics" came together, agreed women had a component of vulnerability in some romantic displays, and then it became a lynch pin of a massive philosophy centered around patriarchy and female vulnerability. It's not silly because it's completely untrue, it's silly because its spread to ridiculous levels.
 

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
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Neither of the women in those pictures are displaying themselves with vulnerability. They both look pretty confident and assertive. Also since when were all women raised the same way that you can make blanket sweeping generalizations? It's almost like people are different with different beliefs and its not 1890 anymore.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Neither of the women in those pictures are displaying themselves with vulnerability. They both look pretty confident and assertive. Also since when were all women raised the same way that you can make blanket sweeping generalizations? It's almost like people are different with different beliefs and its not 1890 anymore.
Don't be fucking dumb. You know damn well I wasn't talking about all women. I'm talking about overall societal pressure that is observable in day to day life.

Consume some media that is meant to titilate women, like erotic fiction, analyze the behaviours and internal narrative of the protagonist, and you'll see what I mean.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Which woman looks like she could moreeffectively resist your sexual advances if that were her desire?
Just to add; because I probably wasn't specific enough, again look at the language. In order for you to assume that she's vulnerable, you have to assume the male will rape her. Do you see what the language does there?

You could look at the picture and think "Which woman looks more openly and aggressively requesting copulation with a male she desires"...That makes just as much sense, right? A woman stripping down and crawling across the bed like a god damn tiger doesn't look vulnerable, she's making very aggressive sexual displays.

Which is the point, a lot of what people see as vulnerability has to do with what ideological view they hold and certain biases; it's not an 'objective' thing. If you see women as a vulnerable demographic then all sexual displays come with an implicit possibility of rape, and someone who makes LESS sexual displays has less of a chance of being raped. Thus, sexual displays imply vulnerability. But if you believe women, in general, control copulation? Then her displays are simply fairly overtaggression.

I would, for example, see a prim librarian who is looking sheepish with her shirt unbuttoned, but mostly covered up and trying to cover herself as FAR more vulnerable than the half naked girl you posted--even though, by your terms, she'd be far more likely to be able to 'resist' an advance on her. If you don't want to resist an advance, is that really a vulnerability anymore? If it can't hurt you, then does that make you vulnerable (If there is no way I can rape you, because you're going to fuck me until my dick falls off--are you vulnerable or are you the aggressor in that picture?) See what I'm saying? It's ironic because second wave feminists used to believe this, that women that owned their sexuality and fucked like men couldn't be vulnerable because their sex wasn't something to be 'taken from them'. But third wave is shoving us back to 'all women need to guard against toxic men who will take them if they are too sexually suggestive".

Not everyone who thinks this way is, of course, thinking LIKE that--I'm sure fathers with daughters think that way automatically :p but you get the idea. It's more about the person observing then some endemic vulnerability. It really has a lot to do with context.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Lithose, there is a difference between aggression and invitation. There is nothing sexually aggressive about the naked woman.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about 'vulnerability' from a cave-man utilitarian perspective. We have already established that women are vulnerable (because they are inherently weaker) to men in all situations, including sexual ones. In the naked woman shot the woman is:

-Naked, or near naked, with genitals exposed.
-laying down, restricting her mobility to leave a situation quickly.
-presenting her genitals for easy access.
-wearing loose fitting jewellery and a long hair style that could be gripped.
-surrounded by cloth, further restricting movement.
-makeup that implies readiness for copulation.

I think talking about human sexual interaction outside of the male/female physical power dynamic is disingenuous. Sure, we exist in a society where males leveraging their physical power is looked down on, but all things being equal, men are the takers in these situations. We know this on a sub-conscious level, and so do women. Both sexes have evolved to be aroused by it, and our society reflects this reality. From high heels, to hair styles, to underwear shape - women highlight their weakness and vulnerability, and men lust after it. Men highlight their strength and aggression, and women lust after it. Birds and bees.

Muslims recognize this inherent sexual vulnerability, and go to great lengths to cover it up, literally. There is no vulnerability to be perceived here:

rrr_img_135141.jpg
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Lithose, there is a difference between aggression and invitation. There is nothing sexually aggressive about the naked woman.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about 'vulnerability' from a cave-man utilitarian perspective. We have already established that women are vulnerable (because they are inherently weaker) to men in all situations, including sexual ones. In the naked woman shot the woman is:

-Naked, or near naked, with genitals exposed.
-laying down, restricting her mobility to leave a situation quickly.
-presenting her genitals for easy access.
-wearing loose fitting jewellery and a long hair style that could be gripped.
-surrounded by cloth, further restricting movement.
-makeup that implies readiness for copulation.
1.) Confident enough to show her genitals and overtly demand copulation (Would you find it aggressive is a male whipped his cock out?)
2.) Laying down because she is completely unafraid and confident she has control over this situation (Some Gorrillas have dominance displays like this).
3.) See 1--easy access to genitals because she's confident she can have what she wants.
4.) Chris Hemsworth is the picture of vulnerable. (You referenced romance novels--lots of long hair in there).
5.) What?
6.) Yes, by reflecting natural signs for copulation, like blush. Copulation isn't vulnerability, invitation to it isn't vulnerability.


I'm confused what you mean by utilitarian perspective? Do you mean who is the aggressor? How did you formulate that without the context of a male in the room? Lets say the guy she was showing off for was some skinny book nerd desperately gripping his calculator and sweating while she sauntered in front of him? What do you think of the display then? You've added context that's not there from your own biases. Which is why I said, this is about context. You're not wrong, you're just not 100% correct either, and making a blanket statement like Mist did is REALLY silly in that light.


I think talking about human sexual interaction outside of the male/female physical power dynamic is disingenuous. Sure, we exist in a society where males leveraging their physical power is looked down on, but all things being equal, men are the takers in these situations. We know this on a sub-conscious level, and so do women. Both sexes have evolved to be aroused by it, and our society reflects this reality. From high heels, to hair styles, to underwear shape - women highlight their weakness and vulnerability, and men lust after it. Men highlight their strength and aggression, and women lust after it. Birds and bees.

Muslims recognize this inherent sexual vulnerability, and go to great lengths to cover it up, literally. There is no vulnerability to be perceived here:
Why are you associating copulation with an act of vulnerability? That seems to be the crux of everything. Yes women are weaker then men, yes this does produce SOME aspects of vulnerability into romantic displays. But it's disingenuous to discuss human sexuality, in all its complexity,with just the physical power dynamic in mind, we're a social species, social power has ahugeeffect on sexuality. Where women hold a lot of social power (Which we have evolutionary traits which indicate at different periods in society, this was the case), the very things you're saying make them vulnerable, can easily be interpreted as aggressive sexuality (High heels to push her ass out is merely a sexual display illustrating she had adequate hips to attract male attention--in our society she can then pick or choose among competing males, that doesn't seem vulnerable at all.)

However, yes, the level of violence in your culture is going to reflect how you see women; it's going to bias neutral displays. It's no coincidence that Islam and Feminism get along so well--the root of their beliefs have men being very powerful and violent, and women being very vulnerable. In both Islam and Hardcore Feminism female sexuality like that is going to imply a high risk of provoking a rape, and thus vulnerability. Context matters a great deal, in a tribal society where women can be stolen, yeah, female sexuality becomes synonymous with vulnerability. But not all societies have to be like this--your very dick proves that depending on society women have had a large degree of control over copulation. Guess how big a Gorillas cock is? It's about 1.5 inches. Do you want to know why? Because they are in a society where all females are vulnerable, there is no voice from the females about WHO the dominant male is, that's a true example of an intrasexual selection species.

Humans have never fully functioned that way, we're an intersexual species, females have had a degree of selection ability, which is why, relative to our body size, a human dick is massive--it's our peacock feather. Men aren't always the takers, there is a reason why even the days when women were "property"--there were long courtship rituals where the woman and her family had plenty of say in how it ended up. CAN men be takers? Yes, but given our evolution as an intersexual species, it's obviously give and take. (As you said, female power is derived from social pressure usually, but look at Bonobos, that's enough to leave the women as the aggressors during sex--humans are more of a mix than most people realize.We'd look very different if men could simply always "take". )

A lot of it comes down to context. You can't make blank calls on sexual displays, assigning all female sexuality to vulnerability is adding your own context to something that has none. Sexual displays aren't vulnerable or aggressive, they can change radically depending on context. In asocial species social power is real, whittling down sexual dynamics to PURELY physical power is the thing that's disingenuous--as said, Bonnobo females maintain dominancenotthrough physical power, but because of social order. In societies where women hold little power (Islam) yeah, those displays might indicate vulnerability, in a social system where men using physical force is socially curtailed? No, I don't think that shows vulnerability. A woman being naked can be very sexually aggressive because of those social power dynamics.
 

Skanda

I'm Amod too!
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Quaid, you are really stretching with that list to try and force 'vulnerability' into any of those characteristics.
 

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
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Keep in mind, I'm talking about 'vulnerability' from a cave-man utilitarian perspective. We have already established that women are vulnerable (because they are inherently weaker) to men in all situations, including sexual ones. In the naked woman shot the woman is:
In all situations? Is someone built like Rick Moranis running around exerting his dominance? If being able to be forced into sex is your only criteria for sexual vulnerability then men are vulnerable too. They are victims of rape as well.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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8,267
Are you for real bro? What an insane thing to say.
Again, sexual invitation is not sexual aggression. I'd find it very difficult to perceive a woman who was on all fours presenting her buttocks as anything but submissive/vulnerable.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not all that interested in this debate.
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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9,081
What was so special about mist that she was able to withstand all the grooming and come out the other end an angry, butch lesbian?
 

Jive Turkey

Karen
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Google 'sexiest women' and 'sexiest men'. Take note of:

Setting?
Clothing?
Pose?
Lighting?
Facial expression?

I just did it and most of the women are under soft light, laying down, puckered lips, fuck-me eyes, pushed out hips/ass... sexual vulnerability.

The men are for the most part steele-eyed, in suits, looking hard as fuck... sexual aggression.
Put an man in the first scenario and tell me what woman would get all hot and bothered over it. This is pure biology