Pyksel
Rasterizing . . .
- 840
- 284
Camelot Unchained MMO
- Thread starter AlekseiFL_sl
- Start date
-
Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Pyksel you're so going to get burned by this. So burned. Mark Jacobs is already creating a media circus around this. He managed to get GBtv to ask for an interview for internet traffic. Don't get sucked in.
MJ has a track record going way back that is worthy of giving him the benefit of the doubt regardless of peripheral factors. Shit he did Magestorm back when nothing like it existed and that game was incredibly fun. You can look at some of his work and judge it as a success or failure but in reality there aren't many people with his depth of experience at all levels of game-making. Plus the more you do something the better you get and the more mistakes you've made and won't make again.
i would have thought the ks would have been an advanced (discounted) subs/playtime as a basis instead of ...vanity items. i guess it can be thought of as buying the equivalent of the boxed game (so as to cover the development), but once out there are supposed subs on top of that.
they made/making an ipad game i think ? anyone try that ?
they made/making an ipad game i think ? anyone try that ?
Pyksel
Rasterizing . . .
- 840
- 284
I'm not sure what you mean by this Draegan. I like where his foundation principles are going but much like others here, the end result will be whether or not I subscribe (for an extended period of time) once the game is released.
Tearofsoul
Ancient MMO noob
- 1,791
- 1,257
You are falling for his vision. That brings nothing but ruin. Plus his vision is outdated.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 4,908
- 6,897
Well that's just your opinion. As pyksel said, it just depends on the end product that actually ships. The vision is just a guide and it will change. Every game in the end looks much different than the initial design docs.
As for the hype, Mark has to make people aware of the game so they donate to the Kickstarter. I have doubts about the legitimacy of Kickstarter and not a fan of the whole hype machine thing, but that's the way the world works atm. And for the game he is trying to create, I don't see any other path to getting it built other than the one he has chosen. The standard money sources have so many strings attached that it isn't possible for him to go that route.
It would be great for the industry to have something from left field prove the conventional wisdom wrong. Not sure if Mark can pull it off, but I wish him the best.
Pyksel
Rasterizing . . .
- 840
- 284
With the way MMORPGS have gone over the last decade and most of them being complete failures, it's easy to see where people would be upset, bitter, cautious, etc. about the next "supposed big thing". This means that anyone can sling words of pessimism about a potential game release and they stand a good chance of being right. Hell, even if a game were a complete success, and by success I mean whatever metric you deem valid for sake of argument, people would still find fault(s) in it and they would more than likely be right. At the end of the day though, I'm a gamer. It's my hobby, my passion, and where I choose to spend the downtime that I have. Much like any movie, I have certainly experienced both the good and bad side of gaming. I've seen my share of flops and been suckered in by the trailers and the hype but it doesn't change my enjoyment of them. I understand that my analogy is a stretch simply because the ratio of movie release to game release is staggering but I think you get my point. I'm not going to stop watching movies just because most people might believe they are shit. I still have to find out for myself whether or not I like it and the only way to do that is check it out. Do I stand a good chance of being disappointed? History says yes, so I'm left with nothing but hype to go off of.
I'm sure someone will come along and bitch that "because of people like me, this is what's wrong with the gaming industry today" and again they would probably be right but I am only half of the equation, the developers/publishers are the other half. I'm not about to stop playing video games on the chance that I am going to witness or be a part of a movement to correct the industry with what time I have left on this planet to enjoy it.
With that being said I am falling for his vision because it's the only thing I have to go on that that sounds even remotely like a step in the right direction. I don't believe for a second that his vision is outdated, I believe that it's just different and that doesn't necessarily equate to being bad. If you took a GW2 or Wildstar dev blog and put it up against Mark's I think you would see completely different opposing views but for myself, I would still read and remain interested in all 3. I'm a gamer, not some prophetic hopeful that is waiting for the industry to get "fixed".
I agree with Grim that Mark's vision is a guide, it will change, and I believe he has chosen the right path to get this built. I might even kick in a few bucks to his Kickstarter just for the slight chance that it might be fun to be a part of something like this. I don't think anyone would disagree that it would be nice for the industry to have something from left field prove the conventional wisdom wrong and that is what I will remain hopeful for.
Denaut
Trump's Staff
- 2,739
- 1,279
Alright, so I have been following this thread but haven't really read the blog posts. They didn't seem all that interesting at a glance and I guess I just didn't feel like it. Well, this is a good thread and I wanted to comment so I figured I would go read through all the posts from the beginning.
I made it about halfway, the last post I read wasFoundational Principle #4 - Choice Matters!and that finally clinched what I suspected all along. Mark Jacobs, for all his years in the industry, has learned nothing about his profession and his skills as a designer are roughly equivalent to any long-time gamer you might pluck off the street. That is just sad.
Firstly, his writing style is abysmal. He comes of as an unfunny and rabid fanboy, not even remotely like a professional with a deep understanding of game design. Contrast his shallow ambling posts with someone likeJosh Sawyer, a game designer at Obsidian. Note how they speak with a completely different voice. Josh inspires confidence as a professional through clearly written articles elucidating fundamental design principles. Mark inspires my eyes to glaze over as they would for any of the other hundreds of meaningless posts written about "game design" on all sorts of forums.
I am going to write a follow-up post using theFoundational Principle #4 - Choice Matters!article to illustrate my point more clearly since it is a post about stat allocation, something he completely misunderstands.
I made it about halfway, the last post I read wasFoundational Principle #4 - Choice Matters!and that finally clinched what I suspected all along. Mark Jacobs, for all his years in the industry, has learned nothing about his profession and his skills as a designer are roughly equivalent to any long-time gamer you might pluck off the street. That is just sad.
Firstly, his writing style is abysmal. He comes of as an unfunny and rabid fanboy, not even remotely like a professional with a deep understanding of game design. Contrast his shallow ambling posts with someone likeJosh Sawyer, a game designer at Obsidian. Note how they speak with a completely different voice. Josh inspires confidence as a professional through clearly written articles elucidating fundamental design principles. Mark inspires my eyes to glaze over as they would for any of the other hundreds of meaningless posts written about "game design" on all sorts of forums.
I am going to write a follow-up post using theFoundational Principle #4 - Choice Matters!article to illustrate my point more clearly since it is a post about stat allocation, something he completely misunderstands.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
I had a similar reaction when I read his blogs. He strikes me as very unprofessional sounding, and even has a lot of grammatical and punctuation errors. If you are trying to inspire people to donate millions of dollars to you, at least have a friend with some writing skills go over your "foundational Principals."
Denaut
Trump's Staff
- 2,739
- 1,279
Just a quick comment (I am in the middle of writing my post), but if you read the latest post onJosh Sawyer'sblog, he basically covers much of what I am saying and indirectly points out why Jacobs is a bad designer.
Denaut
Trump's Staff
- 2,739
- 1,279
It is ironic that in a post titledChoice Matters!Jacobs doesn't even define what choice is or why it matters. By the second sentence he is already jumping to thetoolsdesigners of the past have used to achieve their aims, without it seems realizing that those things aren't choices in and of themselves, but what those designers gave players to express a deeper choice made at a more fundamental level.
He utterly disregards the critical first step of defining the player experience, and how their choices affect that experience. I assume this is because he doesn't actually realize that there is a first step, and immediately starts miming things he has seen and liked in the past without truly understanding the reason for their existence. This is a starting point for anyone new at something, whether she be an artist, musician, or game designer. You start by copying what you've seen and through manipulating it grow in your understanding. Jacobs, a 10(?) year veteran, is making rookie mistakes which leads me to believe that he lacks the necessary skills toeverbe a good designer. If he isn't at least decent by now he will never be.
Mark proceeds by yet further detailing implementation details still without defining goals, at no point in any of his "ideas" (axe swinging, mage armor, etc) does he ever even mention why such a thing as a mage exists in the first place, what it is, and what purpose does it serve to the player and to the game as a whole. It is just a bunch of fanboy self-wanking.
Example 1
Jacobs talks about a full stat allocation system for the game, and how that will affect a character's career. What career? What is a career and why does that matter? Is it a play-style, or an RPG mechanic? He jumps directly to step 15 for no apparent reason or purpose. How does a discrete stat system help you as the player express that choice? Why is a discrete, player controlled, stat system important for the game? What goals does it accomplish? What are its up, and down sides?
He clearly never asked himself these questions, and I don't think he understands these questions even exist in the first place. If the real choice is what career the player wants, why even bother with the stat allocation? They have already made the real choice, the rest is just reading tooltips and clicking the mouse button a bunch of times. It would probably only serve to muddle and confuse the player, and since there are few optimum configurations yet many sub-optimal configurations a player is much more likely to make poor choices through no fault of their own. At this point the player is mostly operating in the dark because they haven't even stepped foot in the game yet. How can you make lasting and meaningful choices if you don't know what you are making choices about?
Example 2
I am going to start repeating myself even more, but he is just so dang bad at this. Once again, he doesn't even define the purpose or goal of race/gender selection. Is it for wish fulfillment? Is it to allow players to express a personal aspect of themselves? Perhaps it is about selecting aesthetic preference? Is it yet another place to remake the choice I already made? That is the starting point, and Mark obviously opted for the last and worst one; probably without even realizing it. This is a great example of how not to frame race/gender selection. He sets it up so that you are just re-selecting your class, which is entirely redundant and pointless.
After this he just keeps blathering on about pointless implementation details, without ever clarifying what anything is driving towards, his examples are completely aimless and without form. This post is just awful on every level, every sentence could be picked apart because so much ignorance and nonsense is crammed into each one. The clueless density of that blog post is just off the chart.
He utterly disregards the critical first step of defining the player experience, and how their choices affect that experience. I assume this is because he doesn't actually realize that there is a first step, and immediately starts miming things he has seen and liked in the past without truly understanding the reason for their existence. This is a starting point for anyone new at something, whether she be an artist, musician, or game designer. You start by copying what you've seen and through manipulating it grow in your understanding. Jacobs, a 10(?) year veteran, is making rookie mistakes which leads me to believe that he lacks the necessary skills toeverbe a good designer. If he isn't at least decent by now he will never be.
Mark proceeds by yet further detailing implementation details still without defining goals, at no point in any of his "ideas" (axe swinging, mage armor, etc) does he ever even mention why such a thing as a mage exists in the first place, what it is, and what purpose does it serve to the player and to the game as a whole. It is just a bunch of fanboy self-wanking.
Example 1
Jacobs talks about a full stat allocation system for the game, and how that will affect a character's career. What career? What is a career and why does that matter? Is it a play-style, or an RPG mechanic? He jumps directly to step 15 for no apparent reason or purpose. How does a discrete stat system help you as the player express that choice? Why is a discrete, player controlled, stat system important for the game? What goals does it accomplish? What are its up, and down sides?
He clearly never asked himself these questions, and I don't think he understands these questions even exist in the first place. If the real choice is what career the player wants, why even bother with the stat allocation? They have already made the real choice, the rest is just reading tooltips and clicking the mouse button a bunch of times. It would probably only serve to muddle and confuse the player, and since there are few optimum configurations yet many sub-optimal configurations a player is much more likely to make poor choices through no fault of their own. At this point the player is mostly operating in the dark because they haven't even stepped foot in the game yet. How can you make lasting and meaningful choices if you don't know what you are making choices about?
Example 2
I am going to start repeating myself even more, but he is just so dang bad at this. Once again, he doesn't even define the purpose or goal of race/gender selection. Is it for wish fulfillment? Is it to allow players to express a personal aspect of themselves? Perhaps it is about selecting aesthetic preference? Is it yet another place to remake the choice I already made? That is the starting point, and Mark obviously opted for the last and worst one; probably without even realizing it. This is a great example of how not to frame race/gender selection. He sets it up so that you are just re-selecting your class, which is entirely redundant and pointless.
After this he just keeps blathering on about pointless implementation details, without ever clarifying what anything is driving towards, his examples are completely aimless and without form. This post is just awful on every level, every sentence could be picked apart because so much ignorance and nonsense is crammed into each one. The clueless density of that blog post is just off the chart.
Denaut, trying to up the hit count to your blog, mate? There's zero substance in your argument except an ad hoc against Jacob's writing style. Jacob's posts are half part sales, half part hyperbole, but what would you expect from someone trying to raise funds and build interest in a saturated market, who probably is using the majority of his time on building said game?
I personally think DAOC is one of the beter designed MMOs, I've played. Frontiers and Darkness Falls setups, especially. Warhammer had a good design before they pasted much of WOW on top of it and it's problems were more technical.
This shouldn't be an 'us and them' oldschool argument but a simpler one looking at what is effective and if the strategy being used for this game will be effective.
.
I personally think DAOC is one of the beter designed MMOs, I've played. Frontiers and Darkness Falls setups, especially. Warhammer had a good design before they pasted much of WOW on top of it and it's problems were more technical.
This shouldn't be an 'us and them' oldschool argument but a simpler one looking at what is effective and if the strategy being used for this game will be effective.
.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
I read the blog by Sawyer you linked, and while I found it interesting, I'm not sure I agree with him completely. To clarify, I agree that a designer should have a clear plan and design a system so that the tools available to a player are grouped appropriately (as he described in the example of haste and fireball in D&D), but I'm not so sure I agree that it should always be obvious to the player. He describes it as giving the player more time with the tool and less time wondering what he wasn't "getting." Part of the fun in a complicated game, to me, is figuring out how best to use the tools the designers have made available. In a game that incorporates pvp, it's even more fun when you figure out interesting uses for those "tools" before the competition.
I also have to say that I have been really hard on Mark Jacobs, mainly because of the way he sat in his desk and did video interviews about WAR, and smugly insisted it was revolutionary when it turned out to be rather bland, uninspired, and hugely flawed in many ways. Also, because he hired that absurd British guy in the black t-shirt to try to pump up the gaming populace about WAR (There are no dancing emotes!! This is WAAAR!Edit to add this lovely reminder of this awesome "designer"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri3w-N_jvPs) However, trying to be objective, I read through his "foundational principles" again, and I'm not going to lie - lots of the things he mentions sound like things I would agree with. I think the problem is: can he be trusted to take it from principle to released game? That's where his track record with WAR really comes back to bite him.
I would agree with you but I don't think he trying to get those that think this to donate and buy his game. He's looking for those 50k to 100k die hard (HARDCORE) people that want something like that and well sub for years to it.