Camelot Unchained MMO

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
37,961
14,508
Not playing any new MMOs until they have been out for a year and deemed worthy. FUCK. It's like the industry is just churning out rubbish after rubbish.. and it's the same people! FUCK THIS SHIT. If people like us didn't buy these heaps of donkey ass these people would have to find new careers and maybe we'd get actual talent in the business again.
 

Izzlyn_sl

shitlord
3
0
Why fund anything when you can bank on gamers to take the fall for it every single time.
Gut instinct tells me these guys are asses abusing the system for no risk development and will simply churn out more of the crap they always have. On the other hand I cant fault kickstarter or anyone that wants creative freedom from those would be financiers with controlling interest. That is what I feel is necessary to take risks and move the genre forward. Even better when we have the power to help, or watch them crash and burn.
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
I really don't get the hate. At all.

Warhammer was really close to being great. Class balance issues aside. You could level to max with PVP only, the PVE wasn't bad and they introduced public quests. If they had allowed you to select any warzone from the start to play through end game and didn't get stuck with the shitty ones in your range it would of been a lot better. Let the players decide what is worth playing or not and don't force people to play a terrible map just because you can.

End game was terrible but fixable. The PVE raiding via PVP was retarded. Same with how they encouraged keep swapping instead of defending, which both of those would of been pretty easy to fix. The end game t4 PvP zones weren't very well designed either with lots of relief and choke points making things difficult to get anywhere but aside from those few really bad decisions the game itself was closer to being really good than any of the other crap we've seen since WoW.

Regardless most of that would have been pretty easy to fix if it wasn't under EA's thumb and won't even come into play since they aren't even doing PVE with the game. How anyone can say its DAOC 2 with removal of PVE is beyond me. DAOC had a HUGE PVE grind and an entire PVE expansion. Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?

Its interesting enough as is and Jacobs has proven he has some good ideas. I just don't get the hate about a game we know little about. I know its popular to shit on everything here while bitching out the other side of your mouth how everyone is copying WoW and no one has the balls to do anything different but I just don't get the hate at all with this.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
WAR was no where near being great from their world design, class design, end game design, combat mechanics, server infrastructure.

You is on crack.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I really don't get the hate. At all.
1) Mark Jacobs is a horrible producer/manager - and is terrible at keeping people on task.

2) He will never learn his lesson, regardless of what he says, to keep his mouth shut before features go live.

3) He is using Kickstarter funds so he doesn't have to take the risk on his own, so while he most definitely has the means to do so, he will pray on the gamers. (This can most definitely be a bad thing when in the hands of Jacobs or any other relic money pit) With kickstarter, he is not held accountable to staying on track which is already a problem to begin with.

4) Old ideas, old game, old concepts. Which is fine - there are a lot of people that may enjoy playing that. I might too. However, his business model is once again stuck in the past along with his ideas.

5) Sub based MMORPG's are dead. That money train (Publishers made a shitload of cash off these by the way) is over. I would think the best model is the way Guild Wars 2 did it. Buy the box to play, have a very solid game to go through, with quality of life items and fub gimmicks on the online store.

6) I would challenge you to name one successful MMORPG released in the last 8 years in where the relic veteran designers had any success what so ever.
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
37,961
14,508
I really don't get the hate. At all.

Warhammer was really close to being great.Class balance issues aside. You could level to max with PVP only, the PVE wasn't bad and they introduced public quests. If they had allowed you to select any warzone from the start to play through end game and didn't get stuck with the shitty ones in your range it would of been a lot better. Let the players decide what is worth playing or not and don't force people to play a terrible map just because you can.

End game was terriblebut fixable.The PVE raiding via PVP was retarded. Same with how they encouraged keep swapping instead of defending, which both of those would of been pretty easy to fix.The end game t4 PvP zones weren't very well designedeither with lots of relief and choke points making things difficult to get anywhere but aside from those few really bad decisionsthe game itself was closer to being really goodthan any of the other crap we've seen since WoW.

Regardless most of that would have been pretty easy to fix if it wasn't under EA's thumb and won't even come into play since they aren't even doing PVE with the game. How anyone can say its DAOC 2 with removal of PVE is beyond me. DAOC had a HUGE PVE grind and an entire PVE expansion. Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?

Its interesting enough as is and Jacobs has proven he has some good ideas. I just don't get the hate about a game we know little about. I know its popular to shit on everything here while bitching out the other side of your mouth how everyone is copying WoW and no one has the balls to do anything different but I just don't get the hate at all with this.
Come ahhhhnnnn
 
158
0
I agree with Kedwyn. WAR had a lot of flaws but I think it had a good core and introduced some cool ideas. I've had a hard-on for public questing ever since. The details is where it fell apart - in addition to the above, "net code" and interface were huge issues, and the PVE was pretty crap outside the public quests. Class design was ok but needed a lot of work. Segregating the community during leveling with scenarios was also a problem.

The game was salvageable at one point. I don't know about great, but it had potential.

I would challenge you to name one successful MMORPG released in the last 8 years in where the relic veteran designers had any success what so ever.
Would you mind naming MMORPGs released in the last 8 years you consider to have had any remote success? I'd assume Rift, DDO, LOTRO, and GW2 count. Runes of Magic maybe? Any others? It seems a bit lonely on that platform in general when I'm looking at the traditional MMO.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Come ahhhhnnnn
I would also like to point out that everything he wanted fixed never was.

This is like saying my dinner tastes like shit without salt and I cannot find salt and end up eating a shitty dinner.

(I have * Always * wanted to use a food analogy here)
 

jello_sl

shitlord
24
0
I enjoyed WAR, the open world realm PvP is where it shined and it was quite endearing. If not for server issues and lack lust/incomplete PvE, that game would have been great had there been a third faction. It was more community interactive than most triple AAA mmorpgs to date. Can't comment much on the Mark Jacobs thing, though he has admitted in interviews that he was in the wrong with decisions that were made in the past. If anyone deserves to be lynched its the developers/directors that keep putting out WoW clone drivel. He is one of the few trying to produce something against the grain, I say put the pitch forks down and see what his team can come up with.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I could of fixed WAR really easily. You take T1 and delete everything else in the game. That is your leveling and those are all the abilities you will ever get. Then add a ton of maps to fight over so players can gain pvp ranks and gear and shit.

Of course you still had a shitty server code to work with but you can't have everything.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Would you mind naming MMORPGs released in the last 8 years you consider to have had any remote success? I'd assume Rift, DDO, LOTRO, and GW2 count. Runes of Magic maybe? Any others? It seems a bit lonely on that platform in general when I'm looking at the traditional MMO.
Ok I should actually define success as actually worth playing longer than a month, rather than companies able to squeek profits out of an MMORPG subscription with a skeleton crew.

Either way, I would be looking at these folks:

Raph Koster
Brad McQuaid
Bill Trost
Jeff Butler
Mark Jacobs
Rich Vogel
Matt Firor
Bill Fisher


For Guild Wars 2, Mike'O Brien wouldn't be considered one of the founding forefathers of the MMORPG genre. That's really who I am talking about here. Turbine has changed hands so many times that you are talking about a specific company, not a set of directors, and is now also owned by Warner Bros.

Scott Hartsman is now gone from Trion. I would expect things to change rapidly and decline fast. He was the only one holding it together over there and people should hope Bill Fisher isn't placed in an executive producer role. Or that rapid decline will turn into a spiral into hell at the speed of thought.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,866
6,822
Gotta agree with Kedwyn also, WAR had a lot going for it. Our DAoC guild stayed there for a looong time.

It wasn't perfect, far from it, and like many I rage quit a few times in frustration over some of their boneheaded decisions. But other than DAoC, no other game got RvR so close to being right. The 2 faction issue was their worst mistake, the rest was fixable. GW2's version was fun for a short time, but it's prettly tame and doesn't have the staying power that even WAR's had. Hopefully GW2 makes some major changes soon because as of right now there really isn't any decent RvR game out.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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It wasn't perfect, far from it and like many I rage quit a few times in frustration over some of their boneheaded decisions. But other than DAoC, no other game got RvR so close to being right. The 2 faction issue was their worst mistake,the rest was fixable.
But.... It was never fixed. Right?
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Nope. And that is why nobody plays it anymore. But as failures go it lasted hell of a lot longer than the 3-4 weeks the current bunch of mmos get.

The 2 faction problem is huge though, game breaking in many ways. It's debatable if fixing the other things would have mattered.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,381
276
Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?
The ones I know are Planetside 1 around the time of DaoC and recently Planetside 2.

Now you might say you want it in a fantasy setting with a strong RPG aspect. In that case I cant think of any. But really once you move into PvP/RvR/WvW only territory you have to make the game similar to Planetside, or step away from the mmo aspect and make it team matchmaking or lobby based. The closest for a fantasy setting that would work for personally is a design like EVE, but that still has PvE even though you are never safe from PvP and much of PvE serves only to fuel the war machine.
 

jello_sl

shitlord
24
0
Utnayan would it not be great if Mark managed his indie team to throw together a Minecraft esque RvR game, incorporating a strong crafting game, allowing player built castles, and keeping a niche-sandbox philosophy behind it all the while being OK with having a dedicated 50-100k subs? What if it was a shining beacon in the dredge of MMORPGs that litter the landscape today, beaming of thoughtful development and realistic goals? It could happen right?!
 

Pyksel

Rasterizing . . .
840
284
Mark's statement about his vision.

Be careful what you wish for?
Over the years I?ve gotten a ton of ?Please make another MMORPG!? (sometimes accompanied by ?A good one this time!!!!?) or ?Please make a DAoC 2? requests as well as lots of other interesting requests that seem quite anatomically impossible. However, after the ?challenging? years of 2005-2009, I needed time, circumstances and stars to align before I was ready to make the decision to jump back into the MMORPG pool. When Mythic Entertainment set out on Dark Age of Camelot just about everybody in the industry said we would fail. That leading our little team against such major companies as Sony, Microsoft and Electronic Arts, who had their own (or were backing) MMORPGs, was nothing short of insanity. After all, even with a strong vision and a young and hungry team, we were told we had no chance of success. Well, despite the odds, only 2.5M in total development funding, 18 month cycle, and a tiny team (about a dozen full-time developers when we started), we created one of the best MMORPGs of all time, Dark Age of Camelot. As I?ve said many times elsewhere, I?m eternally grateful to that team because without their dedication, effort and creativity Dark Age would have been just another idea I got while taking a shower. However, in the immortal words of the great philosopher Timon, ?You?ve got to put your past behind you.?
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That being said, I needed another great idea before I was willing to even consider making another MMORPG. While I?ve covered some of the steps I?ve taken down the MMORPG path elsewhere, it?s worth talking about this core concept a bit more. There was/is no greater champion for using these European myths and legends than me. I still love them as much as I did back in 1999 when I had to convince the Mythic team that it was the right idea for an MMORPG (and don?t get me started on how hard that was and that paled in comparison to trying to convince potential publishers and distributors). BTW, my favorite quote from those years is still how one European executive for a rather major multi-media company said to me ?I don?t know why you think European players would be interested in playing a game based on Camelot.? Now, how could we use some of the same public domain myths and legends in a different and unique way? Well, quite a while ago a friend of mine and I were discussing what kind of games could succeed in Asia. He gave me some tips and I filed those away for future use. Many months later I remembered one of those tips, the one that had been especially important to me throughout my career, use dragons! One of my first online games was, of course, Dragon?s Gate and I still wear the same dragon charm that I have worn for over 20 years. Putting dragons into a game is hardly new. However, what if our world?s dragons were a mere reflection of what these beings are in their own reality? In addition, what if in their dimension their technology is what we call magic? Then, what if a cataclysmic event pierced the walls (Veil) and the power from that dimension flooded our world ? a world with no magic, wizards, and dragons? Moreover, what if that power brought these legends and stories, dreams and nightmares, to life all at once? How would the world be changed? Would it even survive? This shattered world is the backdrop for what comes next.

This is my vision for a new IP based on some of the greatest tales the Western world has ever known. A world where Arthur and his knights are not mere legends, but are alive and fighting to build Camelot; where Nuada has gathered the newly emergent Tuatha D? Danann as they take their first steps out of the ether and where Sigurd is leading his mighty Viking warriors into glorious battle. This is not my former concept re-skinned, not simply Dark Age of Camelot 2 with a new name. If you are looking for a bold new vision for these legends, just as Dark Age of Camelot was a new vision back in 1999, look no further. If the idea of a Tri-Realm?, RvR-focused game where there is no PvE grinding, no gear grinding, no ?instanced-based PvP/RvR? but with a entirely player-owned and crafted economy and where your choices matter, all set within a truly open and persistent world appeals to you, then I hope I?ve piqued your curiosity. And most importantly, if the words ?server pride? and ?realm pride? hold a special place in your heart; then I welcome you to my vision, our world and one day, with your help, a place where you are not merely reliving the legends of Camelot, Vikings and the Tuatha D? Danann but forging them yourselves.

-Mark

P.S. I still hate gold farmers, paid power-levelers and hacked clients. I may have mellowed a bit but I haven?t changed THAT MUCH!
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Also, if you are interested in seeing this vision come to life, please sign up for our newsletter! We?re trying to use it to both gauge initial interest in the game but also to communicate with our future players so pretty please with a Viking on top?

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Falwell

Who loves ya baby?
13
0
If they can give me something similar to a good ole fashioned Festenplatz meat grinder, I'll fucking ante up. Also, one race MUST piss their pants for their detaunt animation ala WAR goblins.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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He needs another great idea, so he decided to do Camelot and RvR. Heh.
He, and others like him, just need to vanish and go do something else for a living. People like Jacob's is one of the very many reasons why the genre has not advanced to where it could be today given current technology, ideas, AI, etc.

And yeah I agree. He needed another new great idea so he goes on to pat himself on the back with DAOC which was 60% complete when it launched, completely unbalanced in RvR with the maoinstay of RvR (Relics) not being available to play for 3 months post launch, then taking what finally could have been a fun concept once it was starting to work itself out, and destroying it with Trials of Atlantis, than digging further by releasing New Frontiers.

The longer these people continue to make games without success, the more publishers just give up on funding all together. I really hope a reboot of personnel comes through one of these days. Where publishers wake up and realize maybe it wasn't a good idea to have Matt Firor and Rich Vogel lead up two flagship IP's after destroying three MMORPG's and driving them into the ground. Common sense? Guess not. Why / How does this continue to happen? A buddy system inside an incestuous genre / industry so nothing ever changes. We need some publishers to wake up and see this, instead of believing their scapegoats after squandering millions sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars.

Just get rid of these idiots.
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I'd like to play a fresh MMORPG one of these days before I die.

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