Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Ambiturner_sl said:

It always bothered me that Iron Man was for the government control while Captain America was against it. It really seems like the roles should be reversed.

Click to expand...

Cap is supposed to be about the ideal version of government, so he views the act as a form of vast overreach and opposes it. Stark supports it because it doesn't affect HIM and it can actually help him out in some ways. At least in the comics. Who knows with MCU.

But the main point is, Captain America isn't just a "yay American government" hero, he's a "yay ideals" hero. Go against those ideals and you go against him, no matter who you are. His loyalty is to the people.

Lyrical_sl said:

Iron Man is Civil War's bad guy.

Acting like a fascist and running around dictating to those with superpowers: CHECK
Hunting down superheroes who won't reveal their alter ego's like they are supervillains: CHECK
Imprisoning said heroes in the negative zone: CHECK
Making all superhumans controlled by government agencies (even for the evil Black Op stuff that isn't legal): CHECK
Cloning your friend and making him a killing machine against other heroes: CHECK

Click to expand...

Comic was written like shit. Hopefully the movie makes it A LOT more gray, because it should have been. The analogy of super hero registration is found throughout society, from firearms, to how we treat felons AFTER release. The comics chose to make the metaphor some kind of Nazi cataloging, analogous to the Jewish registration, which was a big missed opportunity for telling a much deeper and poignant tale.

The irony though of a bunch of ultra liberal comic writers wrote the story so the 'bad guys' are the ones who areFORthe analogy of gun control (IE people with power, guns, should need to register, and have their identities known like the New York gun registration laws, and the only ones who should be able to keep guns are those who work for the government--the same government that, as said, does all kinds of black ops bullshit and breaks the law.)..And the 'good guys' in this shallow story line would the analogy for the crazy Texans/Militia teams (Xmen) who believe its okay for citizens to have fucking grenades and miniguns (Or far worse, Cyclops, Prof X, ect) in order to hunt down criminals. (Really, it's pretty hilarious.)

In any case, the movie has a chance to make the story A LOT better. Iron Man's position should not be seen as all together evil; he wants those in power to have checks and balances. It's obvious the super heroes wield a lot of power. If they make it so the Government says 'you can stay anonymous as long as you don't use your powers to fight crime or be vigilantes unless we ask for help', and make Stark's position a lot more reasonable in regards to privacy? You'd have a great, nuanced story on your hands. A story about sticking to your ideals (Captain America) even over people who are trying to save lives (Iron Man); a story about the classic American dillemas of free speech, gun ownership, due process (For things like rape ect), reasonable doubt, search and seizure--the notion that it IS better to let 100 guilty people go free rather than put one innocent person in jail or even to have people die, rather than restrict liberties. THAT would have made a great fucking story, a story that really speaks about struggles we actually face (Security vs freedom).

Instead though we got 'lol I'm a Nazi now" because everything has to be black and white.

not just weapons, but mental health and disabilities.
your car... so when you do a hit and run, they have your license plate..

yeah, it was written really terribly.
Logically, YES of course "superheroes" and mutants should have a registry. like, social security, medicare, etc. how the fuck else would mutants who need medical support to live, get it?

There is a huge joke, with the xmen, using Cerebro to do exactly what they were fighting against Tony, and the goverment for. The government creating a registry for powers, to train, support, and provide aide is bad. A private clandestine organisation doing it with their super psychic computer. Totally ok.
and those mutants that can't live without help? yeah, they go live in the fucking sewers.

if you were a private citizen, or even a mutant. its hard to imagine, living in this world, and not thinking the X-men aren't the bad guys.


A good allegory would have been mental health care, universal healthcare, private vs public medical records. The forced conscription is a separate issue. and could have been an element of the therapy/training. But needed to be treated as a separate issue. Registration=conscription is fucking retarded.

and yeah, that the writers of these comics have the government always so fucking evil says alot about the writers.

Blackyce_sl said:

I'm just hoping that like in the comics, Spidey is originally with Iron Man then switches teams to Cap after he finds out the shit Tony Stark is pulling.

As far as the power scale goes, he's faster than anyone on that field, physically stronger than anyone on that field with possibly the exception of Vision (don't know how actually powerful his android body is) and has probably the most powerful super power of them all in his Spider-Sense.

Spidey's spider-sense has been really fudged in the movies so far but combine that with his speed and reflexes and he is virtually unhittable.

Click to expand...

Did you read the link I put on strength levels a few posts back?

Spiderman: 20 tons (I didn't know he got powered up, it was 10 tons for 30-40 years)
Vision: 50 tons in diamond density
War Machine: 85 tons
Iron Man: 100+ tons

You could argue that Spiderman's defense is one of the best of the field though. Unless it's AOE, he's pretty much immune to single target attacks, between being a precog and super fast reflexes. If a badguy hits an AOE that covers a block radius, and Spidey's in that range, he's going to get hit.

Lithose_sl said:

In any case, the movie has a chance to make the story A LOT better.

Click to expand...

There is literally zero chance that Hollywood doesn't make the government even more evil in this version. Source: The recent Oscars.

Amzin_sl said:

Cap is supposed to be about the ideal version of government, so he views the act as a form of vast overreach and opposes it. Stark supports it because it doesn't affect HIM and it can actually help him out in some ways. At least in the comics. Who knows with MCU.

But the main point is, Captain America isn't just a "yay American government" hero, he's a "yay ideals" hero. Go against those ideals and you go against him, no matter who you are. His loyalty is to the people.

Click to expand...

Cap has broken ties with the US government in the comics before, when they started doing shady espionage stuff, and trying to get him involved. That's why they tried to replace him with US Agent:

Ambiturner_sl said:

It always bothered me that Iron Man was for the government control while Captain America was against it. It really seems like the roles should be reversed.

Click to expand...

Cap values liberty over safety. They set this up in Winter Soldier with a conversation with Fury, and the whole destroying SHIELD thing.

In the comic the only out of place thing was how quickly Stark went pro-reg.

I know it's a well-known comic book arc and all, but the premise of this movie is pretty stupid. I find it hard to believe that this group of friends would split into two factions and fight each other to the death over a government mandate. Just seems like an excuse to shoehorn as many superheroes as possible into a blockbuster movie.

supertouch_sl said:

I know it's a well-known comic book arc and all, but the premise of this movie is pretty stupid. I find it hard to believe that this group of friends would split into two factions and fight each other to the death over a government mandate. Just seems like an excuse to shoehorn as many superheroes as possible into a blockbuster movie.

Click to expand...

Don't forget, in the comic, the New Warriors screwed up, and went into a hostage situation, and failed. Which made the gov't regulate heroes. It's the same premise as Batman v Superman. Batman is after Superman for the wanton destruction in Man of Steel. Is it contrived? Yes. But what would realistically happen if super powered vigilantes roamed the streets in the real world? You know for damn sure they'd be trying to register, regulate and control it, just like they do everything else.

supertouch_sl said:

I know it's a well-known comic book arc and all, but the premise of this movie is pretty stupid. I find it hard to believe that this group of friends would split into two factions and fight each other to the death over a government mandate. Just seems like an excuse to shoehorn as many superheroes as possible into a blockbuster movie.

Click to expand...

Well they're going to be manipulated into it, presumably by Ross. Once the first shot is fired it's pretty hard to stop the conflict, and if Bucky gets framed for taking out Rhodey fairly early on in the movie, that could easily be why Stark and Cap come to blows. Stark is convinced Bucky tried to kill his oldest friend, Cap believes Bucky when he says he didn't do it. Wouldn't be surprised if the anti-registration side ends up finding out that they were manipulated into this fight by Ross but can't make Stark believe it, which is what leads to a full team vs team showdown.

supertouch_sl said:

I know it's a well-known comic book arc and all, but the premise of this movie is pretty stupid. I find it hard to believe that this group of friends would split into two factions and fight each other to the death over a government mandate. Just seems like an excuse to shoehorn as many superheroes as possible into a blockbuster movie.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone REALLY thinks it's "to the death". It just them fighting against each other to either be free (Caps side) or be complacent (Iron Man). Caps side is basically running and fighting back against capture. The villain, Baron Zemo, is probably trying to do shit and both sides are trying to stop it while both infighting.

It's more a squabble than a war. No one is (probably) dying.

Yeaaaaah Doggie.

Xevy_sl said:

No one is (probably) dying.

Click to expand...

Did you forget the ending?

Go back and re-read Civil War.

Lyrical why are you trying to potentially spoil the movie for non comic readers?

I don't read comics and I knew Cap dies in civil war. And why are you using a spoiler? It's already been mentioned that Ross is a villain, even if someone was too dumb to remember that he definitely wasn't a good guy in the Incredible Hulk.

Caliane_sl said:

not just weapons, but mental health and disabilities.
your car... so when you do a hit and run, they have your license plate..

yeah, it was written really terribly.
Logically, YES of course "superheroes" and mutants should have a registry. like, social security, medicare, etc. how the fuck else would mutants who need medical support to live, get it?

There is a huge joke, with the xmen, using Cerebro to do exactly what they were fighting against Tony, and the goverment for. The government creating a registry for powers, to train, support, and provide aide is bad. A private clandestine organisation doing it with their super psychic computer. Totally ok.
and those mutants that can't live without help? yeah, they go live in the fucking sewers.

if you were a private citizen, or even a mutant. its hard to imagine, living in this world, and not thinking the X-men aren't the bad guys.


A good allegory would have been mental health care, universal healthcare, private vs public medical records. The forced conscription is a separate issue. and could have been an element of the therapy/training. But needed to be treated as a separate issue. Registration=conscription is fucking retarded.

and yeah, that the writers of these comics have the government always so fucking evil says alot about the writers.

Click to expand...

Is your mutant power the ability to add commas everywhere so people read your posts in a jerky cadence?

Twilight Sparkle_sl said:

I don't read comics and I knew Cap dies in civil war. And why are you using a spoiler? It's already been mentioned that Ross is a villain, even if someone was too dumb to remember that he definitely wasn't a good guy in the Incredible Hulk.

Click to expand...

I was trying super hard to not be a hypocrit by including a potential spoiler in the same post as i suggesting lyrical avoid them

Nester_sl said:

Lyrical why are you trying to potentially spoil the movie for non comic readers?

Click to expand...

Blame CNN, Fox, ABC, etc for spoiling this years ago. Tell me, were you in a coma in 2007?

Personally, I don't think they'll kill him off. I don't think the general public has the tolerance to see these characters get killed off and then resurrected every year. If they kill anyone off, my money is on Robert Downey's character.

If he dies here we won't get to see Thanos break his shield.