Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

And the tesseract got to earth because of Thor and Odin. It didn't miracle itself here and we didn't create it.

Tesseract has been here for a very long time. Roughly 600 years.

It got to earth during the An Asgardian War versus the Frost Giants.

In 965 AD, Odin, king of Asgard, wages war against the Frost Giants of Jotunheim and their leader Laufey, to prevent them from conquering the nine realms, starting with Earth. The Asgardian warriors defeat the Frost Giants and seize the source of their power, the Casket of Ancient Winters.

How the fuck is that the fault of the Thor exactly?? He was an infant

Also they imply in that Film, Asgardians are just evolved Humans, and their magic is just advanced technology.

No true avenger!

Eh?

Had Cap just helped capture Bucky the govt probably would have trusted him. When they see him defend one of his own against authority (authority which was well founded, Bucky was a murderer whether he was brainwashed or not) they don't trust him. I wouldn't either.

Bucky wasn't even wanted for the bombing till after the Accords had been introduced.An agreement Cap refused to sign! Trust had been Broken long before that..

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Tesseract has been here for a very long time. Roughly 600 years.

Thor was a baby when this happened.. It got to earth during the An Asgardian War versus the Frost Giants.

How the fuck is that the fault of Thor exactly??

Thor is the prince of his people, a high end political ruler of Asgard, and their military commander. The Tesseract could help end all life in the universe.Since when is misplacing a WMD NOT the fault of the people who misplaced it? Since when is then allowing another one of your royalty to steal it and use it in a bid for global domination ALSO not your fault? (If America lost its nukes, REGARDLESS of the reason, we'd ask if they were responsible enough to have them in the first place--Asgard seems to lose objects of universal power quite frequently.)

You really are being dumb here. No one on earth would limit the responsibility of a nation or the leaders of that nation the way you do. Essentially Thor gets all the benefits of being an Asgardian prince, but none of the responsibility? The whole reason why Thor felt he had to come to Earth was because heIS RESPONSIBLE. He is responsible because of his status within the nation that left that shit on earth, he is responsible because a member of his own nation, which he was responsible for bringing to justice, is the one attempting to use it to terrorize the people of another planet.

He feels responsible enough to risk his life to stop this, but you somehow find it odd other people apply part of the responsibility of the destruction to him? Again..This would be like America leaving a nuke in Afghanistan, then a rogue American general escaping our custody, going to Afghanistan and setting it off--then we come in and clean it up and you're like, but hey, they cleaned it up, so how is it their fucking fault?!?!?!?!?!! Uhh, we shouldn't have left the nuke there? Our generals and politicians should have went and cleaned it up before it became a problem even after the initial incident? There are many points where that would absolutely be our fault.

Column_sl said:
Eh?

He's referring to your distinction that Stark and Banner made Ultron--as if they aren't, you know, Avengers. It would like the U.S. government saying "durr, the CIA did that--not us!" (And once more, is Shield no culpable for what it did not know about in its own organization? Of course they are. If you have and run a powerful organization, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for the actions of the people in it, especially if its like 10 guys tops...what fucking world do you live on where that isn't the case?)

It's retarded, in essence.

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

Thor is the prince of his people, a high end political ruler of Asgard, and their military commander. The Tesseract could help end all life in the universe. Since when is misplacing a WMD NOT the fault of the people who misplaced it? Since when is then allowing another one of your royalty to steal it and use it in a bid for global domination ALSO not your fault?

You really are being dumb here. No one on earth would limit the responsibility of a nation or people the way you do. Essentially Thor gets all the benefits of being an Asgardian prince, but none of the responsibility? The whole reason why Thor felt he had to come to Earth was because he IS RESPONSIBLE. He is responsible because of his status within the nation that left that shit on earth, he is responsible because a member of his own nation, which he was responsible for bringing to justice, is the one attempting to use it to terrorize the people of another planet.

He feels responsible enough to risk his life to stop this, but you somehow find it odd other people apply part of the responsibility of the destruction to him? Again..This would be like America leaving a nuke in Afghanistan, then a rogue American general escaping our custody, going to Afghanistan and setting it off--then we come in and clean it up and you're like, but hey, they cleaned it up, so how is it their fucking fault?!?!?!?!?!!

Ah so now it's the Asgardians that are to Blame for everything. Blame shifted. Also Odin was not only responsible for the War, but he was still the king of his people, and Thor did try to get the tesseract back ,and Odin Exiled and stripped him of his title when he found out about it...

He's referring to your distinction that Stark and Banner made Ultron--as if they aren't, you know, Avengers. It would like the U.S. government saying "durr, the CIA did that--not us!"

It's retarded, in essence.

They stopped being Avengers when they stopped being a team that day.

The end was inevitable long before the Accords, they foreshadow it between Cap, and Stark at Clint's house.

Gavinmad · May 14, 2016

My original point was not that the Avengers had no part of the responsibility, but rather that Stark has responsibility for what Ultron did independent of him being an Avenger. Like I said, crimes against humanity.

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

I'm not even sure how Tony's company gets away with half the shit they have from Iron Man 1- Cap 3.

They started prosecuting him in the first movie, but then it was like they forgot all about it.

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Ah so now it's the Asgardians that are to Blame for everything. Blame shifted. Also Odin was not only responsible for the War, but he was still the king of his people, and Thordid try to get the tesseract back ,and Odin Exiled and stripped him of his title when he found out about it...

What? Did you even watch these films? Thor wasn't stripped of his powers due to the tesseract. What the hell are you talking about?

Asgardians are to blame for leaving a cosmic force of destruction on a backwards world, yes. Yes they are. Especially since Thor flat out said the gems (Tesseract) was Asgards responsibility and couldn't be left in human hands. Meanwhile, they left it in human hands for centuries, while their military commanders, I guess, forgot about it until another one of their royal family decided to use it to conquer earth and gain power for a mad man who was going to end all life in the universe.

Column_sl said:
They stopped being Avengers when they stopped being a team that day.

Yes, Column. That's how responsibility works. They stopped being "Avengers" when they stop being a 'team'. LOL...The only reason Stark had the capability to do what he did was the resources the Avengers gave him, access to the mind stone was due to the team--they are ALL responsible for that object once it was in their custody. But even then, they clearly didn't stop being a team after that point....They went out an worked as the Avengers after Ultron was made, even when on a little Avenger retreat to a farm.

Looks like they still refer to themselves as Avengers,WEIRD.(Even within your own childish logic of what constitutes responsibility, that it ends the moment someone on your team does something bad..LOL...you are still wrong.)

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

What? Did you even watch these films? Thor wasn't stripped of his powers due to the tesseract. What the hell are you talking about?

Thor went to retrieve all stolen items from the King of the Frost Giants including the casket they just stole....

In the present, Odin's son Thor prepares to ascend to the throne of Asgard, but is interrupted when Frost Giants attempt to retrieve the Casket. Against Odin's order, Thor travels to Jotunheim to confront Laufey, accompanied by his brother Loki, childhood friend Sif and the Warriors Three: Volstagg, Fandral, and Hogun. A battle ensues until Odin intervenes to save the Asgardians, destroying the fragile truce between the two races. For Thor's arrogance, Odin strips his son of his godly power and exiles him to Earth as a mortal, accompanied by his hammer Mjolnir, now protected by an enchantment that allows only the worthy to wield it.

Lithose_sl said:
Asgardians are to blame for leaving a cosmic force of destruction on a backwards world, yes. Yes they are. Especially since Thor flat out said the gems (Tesseract) was Asgards responsibility and couldn't be left in human hands. Meanwhile, they left it in human hands for centuries, while their military commanders, I guess, forgot about it until another one of their royal family decided to use it to conquer earth and gain power for a mad man who was going to end all life in the universe.

IT WAS LOST! Assumed to be on Earth or the Frost's Giants world

What great display of it's power did the Red Skull use it for that would tip off the Asgardians it was even here???

Lithose_sl said:
Yes, Column. That's how responsibility works. They stopped being "Avengers" when they stop being a 'team'. LOL...The only reason Stark had the capability to do what he did was the resources the Avengers gave him, access to the mind stone was due to the team--they are ALL responsible for that object once it was in their custody. But even then, they clearly didn't stop being a team after that point....They went out an worked as the Avengers after Ultron was made, even when on a little Avenger retreat to a farm.

Stark didn't need the Avengers to get the mind stone.. He could have easily gotten that himself. He pretty much just flys into the compound, and takes it. He really didn't need Banner either, it just made it easier for him.

And that team was highly fractured going into Cap 3, it was inevitable to fall apart because Stark would have destroyed it like he destroys everything he gets close to. Where is Pepper btw ;}

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Twilight Sparkle_sl said:
My original point was not that the Avengers had no part of the responsibility, but rather that Stark has responsibility for what Ultron did independent of him being an Avenger. Like I said, crimes against humanity.

No, because Stark could not have built Ultron without the rest of the Avengers. Thor could have kept the Mind Stone from him. Captain America could have watched over the mind stone. Black Widow could have reported to the other team members.

They left an object of immense power, that was ALL of their responsibilities, in Tony's care based on the fact that he was a member of their organization--an Avenger.

Again, this would be like the U.S. saying that some general went nuts and launched a nuke--but he obviously wasn't a U.S. military member! The question becomes why the did one man have access to so much power, without oversight, that something like this could happen?The only answer would be because he was so trusted within the organization(But even then we seem to guard our nukes more carefully than the Avengers guard galaxy ending power) In this case the Avengers were absolutely responsible for the Staff in their custody, and Stark's access was based off of that, and thus Ultron is their responsibility (He only had it without supervision because his status as, essentially, second in command of the organization). You are responsible for the people in your organization if they use resources from your organization to do terrible things--even if they hide it from you, that's a failure if your oversight, it is still your responsibility.

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Thor went to retrieve all items from the King of the Frost Giants including the casket they just stole....

The Casket wasn't the tesseract. It was the casket of ancient winter. Again, did you watch these films? Do you even read your own posts? You literally just said the tesseract was left on earth centuries ago-----how was Thor trying to retrieve it in Thor 1 from the Frost Giant realm?

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Thor went to retrieve all stolen items from the King of the Frost Giants including the casket they just stole....

There was no 'including the casket' that was what they were after. You're making baseless assumptions now to prop up an argument out of no where.

Column_sl said:
IT WAS LOST! Assumed to be on Earth or the Frost's Giants world

Sorry bros, I just lost a few nukes....Not my bad though, I won't go looking for them...I'm sure it will be fine.

LOL. Come on....

Abefroman · May 14, 2016

I demand reparations from the Asgardians.

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

Lithose_sl said:
There was no 'including the casket' that was what they were after. You're making baseless assumptions now to prop up an argument out of no where.

Sorry bros, I just lost a few nukes....Not my bad though, I won't go looking for them...I'm sure it will be fine.

LOL. Come on....

Ah so it's the Asgardians to blame for everything now, not the Avengers. Good luck with them signing Accords to a people they consider ants.

And LOL at comparing the Tesseract to something as simple as a Nuke

That's chimp logic

In a Universe where we aren't even close to being the top of the food chain, what makes us so arrogant that we can make demands of any higher power?

Abefroman_sl said:
I demand reparations from the Asgardians.

LMAO

Caliane · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Thor went to retrieve all stolen items from the King of the Frost Giants including the casket they just stole....

IT WAS LOST! Assumed to be on Earth or the Frost's Giants world

What great display of it's power did the Red Skull use it for that would tip off the Asgardians it was even here???

Stark didn't need the Avengers to get the mind stone.. He could have easily gotten that himself. He pretty much just flys into the compound, and takes it. He really didn't need Banner either, it just made it easier for him.

And that team was highly fractured going into Cap 3, it was inevitable to fall apart because Stark would have destroyed it like he destroys everything he gets close to. Where is Pepper btw ;}

yeah. you are totally misremembering all the Thors.
The Tesseract was on Earth, in Captain America. red skull finds it in a Norse temple. its lost at sea.
(you know.. that does beggar the question of why Heimdall didn't see it. he does watch Earth. Maybe hes too young in the move version, I guess.)

Thor 1
the Giants sneak into the armory, and all die, by the destroyer. They don't steal anything.
Thor gets uppity that they even had the gall to do that. goes to Niflheim to confront the Joten. starts a fight. Odin has to come save them.
Thor gets sent to Earth.
Loki then goes into the armory and touches the casket, which reveals his halfblood nature.

Avengers.
Loki is drawn to Earth due t the Tesseract being used to open a portal.
Thor takes the Tesseract back with him.

thor 2. Red stuff is also hidden, but not in the armory. did they actually say the Tesseract was "lost"? or perhaps it was just hidden like the red stuff.

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

The Tesseract was on Earth, in Captain America. red skull finds it in a Norse temple. its lost at sea.

That is reader's knowledge. The Asgardians didn't know where it was other then it was either on the Earth, or the Frost Giants home world.

Thanos knew where it was tho, which makes me think the Red Skull has some universal dealings while he was in control.

Caliane · May 14, 2016

The Tesseract was activated and communicating remotely. No dealings were needed. They just called it, and it responded, letting them know where it was.

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
Ah so it's the Asgardians to blame for everything now, not the Avengers. Good luck with them signing Accords to a people they consider ants.

Thor is an Asgardian prince, he is a member of the Avengers--Avengers one was cleaning up from the mess the Asgardians made by not doing something as simple as keeping an inventory of their super weapons.

Ultron was all the Avengers.

Again, we're talking a lot of incidents and responsability is complex, I'm trying really hard to dumb it down for you--but apparently 'chimp logic' is still too high end.

Column_sl said:
And LOL at comparing the Tesseract to something as simple as a Nuke

That's chimp logic

You're making my argument for me, the sad part is, you don't even realize it. Even something on the grand scale as trivial as a nuke would be looked at, on earth, as something that absolutely should be kept track of.Yet you have a device that can destroy entire worlds, potentially the universe if used correctly--andwoops, we lost it? We had centuries to look for it...while you were still swinging swords around, but naa...naaa...Why would we do that?

Column_sl said:
In a Universe where we aren't even close to being the top of the food chain, what makes us so arrogant that we can make demands of any higher power?

Goal post shift. Conversation was about why humans would think the Avengers were responsible. Now you're attempting to say humans are unimportant insects not worthy of finding people responsible.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on that point--Might makes right. But that's not what this conversation was about. Humanity absolutely has a reason to hold the Avengers responsible, the Avengers, can simply become Tyrants in response and crush the puny humans--which I suspect is what Captain America would end up being in your fucked up world, because 'why should puny humans make demands on a super human".

lol. Again, do you read the comics?You don't seem to get the very basic premise of why "good" characters struggle with their power, often times it is NOT their opponent, it is their own choices(Seriously you need to read more Spider Man, you're the only person that still doesn't get Uncle Ben's line). If Thor felt the way you do, hecertainly wouldn't care if earth was conquered, nor would Odin's spell activate by giving Thor back his power for sacrificing himself to protect humans, if they are like, as you put it 'ants' (Odin also specifically says they are just like humans, born, live, die--Its Loki who makes a distinction of how long Asgardians live) Thor also happens to be fucking and in love with an "ant" but yeah,Column logic.

Column_sl · May 14, 2016

Caliane_sl said:
The Tesseract was activated and communicating remotely. No dealings were needed. They just called it, and it responded, letting them know where it was.

Who? the Asgardians? If that was true it would never be presumed lost like it says in the Lore.

They would have warped right in and taken it as soon as the Red Skull's scientists starting experimenting on it.

Caliane · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
In a Universe where we aren't even close to being the top of the food chain, what makes us so arrogant that we can make demands of any higher power?
LMAO

Lithose · May 14, 2016

Column_sl said:
That is reader's knowledge. The Asgardians didn't know where it was other then it was either on the Earth, or the Frost Giants home world.

Thanos knew where it was tho, which makes me think the Red Skull has some universal dealings while he was in control.

Your assumption the Asgardians even lost it is a readers assumption. We literally don't know. There is no hint or mention or allusion to it being on the Frost Giants home world...Show me where that's said, Column. Go on.

It doesn't even make sense logically. The Asgardians conquered the frost giants, shattered their throne, stole their most sacred artifact and one of their children; but then 'lost' a weapon of ultimate power on the same world? What the fuck?

gauze · May 14, 2016

Cad_sl said:
Had Cap just helped capture Bucky the govt probably would have trusted him. When they see him defend one of his own against authority (authority which was well founded, Bucky was a murderer whether he was brainwashed or not) they don't trust him. I wouldn't either.

don't know if safe to unspoiler, so spoilered.

I think it was less about him trying to help capture him, but him having his suspicions that it wasn't Bucky to begin with and/or defuse the situation in a less "violent" manor. Which the accord goes against all of that, it robs the hero's of their choice/decisions and puts it in the hands of others. Also being that he was pretty much shoot(maybe kill, I don't think they said kill) on sight, which would have incited more damage from Bucky had he either done it or not. The only answer was the try and give Bucky a familiar face, and figure it out from there. Any sort of interrogation or other means, meant more trouble to Bucky that Cap couldn't control, there was no fair trial happening for Bucky. I mean, look at the captured Avengers and their island prison; its incarcerated without trial. Even to the end, they had to be broken out. It would have also been a bad fight for Bucky regardless, because Black Panther was out for blood. It wasn't until near the end that Black Panther realized that being consumed by revenge wasn't the right path to follow.

Personally, I would have loved to seen the resolve with Captain America being shot adding the heroes vulnerability that way. Maybe not killed, but leave his life in the balance, the whole dropping his shield thing just felt so childish and makes me dislike Tony more than I have since IM3. Instead we got a paraplegic Rhodes. Also I like Don Cheadle, but fuck he needs to gain some weight for these movies. I couldn't get over how crackhead he looked in a lot of scenes.

I don't feel like finding the video but someone did a death tally for Iron Man from all the movies, and he was somewhere in the "70,000"(aliens and robots included.) Basically far beyond anyone else in the mcu.

Captain America: Civil War (2016)

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