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Burns

Burns

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Lanx said:
i mean why tho,

i'm not an ev owner, i'm ev curious, even gonna install a 240v outlet, b/c i can, but other than long roadtrips who really uses charging stations? are there that many ppl who buy an ev and live in an apt? or have a garage and can't wire in a 240v?

if you charge at home and get a few free charges at work, charging stations should only be for ppl who roadtrip
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A per gallon gas tax is probably the best way to tax a vehicle's use of the road that those taxes pay for. The problems with funding roads actually started 15+ years ago, when vehicle MPG started to climb progressively higher. Politicians didn't want to be responsible for raising gas prices though higher taxes, so alternate solutions began to be investigated at that time. The adoption of EVs are going to throw those issues into hyperdrive.

My guess would be that it will only be part of the tax equation. Putting a tax on public charging stations will tax "heavy" road users but they will find ways to get everyone. I could see some states increasing the yearly "registration" tax to European levels for everyone, not just EVs. Something like 10% of your cars value in taxes yearly, and if you are already paying that, then they will double it.
 
Burns

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Sanrith Descartes said:
Ill most likely be dead by then so I am not concerned.
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You plan on dying in the next 10 or 15 years, eh?

Cali wants all new cars to be electric by 2025 or some ludicrous shit, so I am sure New York will follow suit soon after. Its all about tax funding, so even Florida and Texas may not be safe, if they see their tax revenue fall too far.
 
Sanrith Descartes

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Burns said:
You plan on dying in the next 10 or 15 years, eh?

Cali wants all new cars to be electric by 2025 or some ludicrous shit, so I am sure New York will follow suit soon after. Its all about tax funding, so even Florida and Texas may not be safe, if they see their tax revenue fall too far.
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I am an old man so 15 years could be cutting it close. Mass quantities of hookers and blow probably did a number on my projected longevity. Also my parole from NY comes up in 32 months.
 
BrutulTM

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Sanrith Descartes said:
I only supercharge on long trips. All other times its 4 cents a kilowatt at home and thats in expensive ass NY
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But now you have to make a special stop if you want 44 oz of soda for $1.75 or a package of Hoho's.
 
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mkopec

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Burns said:
A per gallon gas tax is probably the best way to tax a vehicle's use of the road that those taxes pay for. The problems with funding roads actually started 15+ years ago, when vehicle MPG started to climb progressively higher. Politicians didn't want to be responsible for raising gas prices though higher taxes, so alternate solutions began to be investigated at that time. The adoption of EVs are going to throw those issues into hyperdrive.

My guess would be that it will only be part of the tax equation. Putting a tax on public charging stations will tax "heavy" road users but they will find ways to get everyone. I could see some states increasing the yearly "registration" tax to European levels for everyone, not just EVs. Something like 10% of your cars value in taxes yearly, and if you are already paying that, then they will double it.
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In my state (MI) any gas tax gets vehemently voted down when put on the ballot. In any case, state roads are supposed to be paid for by yearly registration fees which is a tax already. I mean how many fuicking times you wanna tax a man for using his car? I pay damn near $500 per year for all my vehicles. Might not sound like much on the surface but everybody that drives pays that tax too and thats a a shit load of moneys the state collects every year. Not to mention among other things like 6% state sales tax and taxing our income some more percent. Its not my fault the money gets pissed away and stolen and swindled along the way and our roads are still shit. Prob the worst in the nation.
 
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mkopec

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BrutulTM said:
But now you have to make a special stop if you want 44 oz of soda for $1.75 or a package of Hoho's.
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Good point, I see a lot of those convenience gas stations going out of business unless they switch over and switch over quick.
 
Burns

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mkopec said:
In my state (MI) any gas tax gets vehemently voted down when put on the ballot. In any case, state roads are supposed to be paid for by yearly registration fees which is a tax already. I mean how many fuicking times you wanna tax a man for using his car? I pay damn near $500 per year for all my vehicles. Might not sound like much on the surface but everybody that drives pays that tax too and thats a a shit load of moneys the state collects every year. Not to mention among other things like 6% state sales tax and taxing our income some more percent. Its not my fault the money gets pissed away and stolen and swindled along the way and our roads are still shit. Prob the worst in the nation.
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Gas tax in Michigan is used for roads, just like most everywhere else. I would guess that taxing gas was probably the first tax implemented expressly for road maintenance, but increasing the gas tax is deeply unpopular, so of course politicians found a way to raise funds, w/o raising gas prices. Hence vehicle registration was steadily increased instead.

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not for more taxes, just trying to relay what I remember reading and seeing 10 or so years ago. When this issue made various news and documentary type shows.

Furthermore, I have every confidence that a majority of politicians (of all stripes) find ways to grift the tax funds; however they may be collected. Unfortunately, until campaign financing is reformed, nothing will change on that front. I don't believe you can ever eliminate the grift, but there are things that can be done to minimize it.

Excerpt on Michigan's gas tax (this is from 2019, michigan.gov says it's now 27.2 cents, but changes due to inflation every year?):
2022-10-13 16.22.59 wwmt.com 163ba622ece1.png


Interesting chart somewhat related chart:
2022-10-13 16.46.45 upload.wikimedia.org 87d26cb4e327.png
 
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Lanx

Lanx

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Burns said:
Gas tax in Michigan is used for roads, just like most everywhere else. I would guess that taxing gas was probably the first tax implemented expressly for road maintenance, but increasing the gas tax is deeply unpopular, so of course politicians found a way to raise funds, w/o raising gas prices. Hence vehicle registration was steadily increased instead.

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not for more taxes, just trying to relay what I remember reading and seeing 10 or so years ago. When this issue made various news and documentary type shows.

Furthermore, I have every confidence that a majority of politicians (of all stripes) find ways to grift the tax funds; however they may be collected. Unfortunately, until campaign financing is reformed, nothing will change on that front. I don't believe you can ever eliminate the grift, but there are things that can be done to minimize it.

Excerpt on Michigan's gas tax (this is from 2019, michigan.gov says it's now 27.2 cents, but changes due to inflation every year?):
View attachment 437871

Interesting chart somewhat related chart:
View attachment 437874
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so what youre saying is we should run over those leeching bicyclists
 
Burns

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Lanx said:
so what youre saying is we should run over those leeching bicyclists
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No one told you that it is your duty as an American to run at least 1 bicyclist off the road, per year? You better get busy before INS comes a knockin and takes away your citizenship.

Some cities have built or are building bike lanes, and it makes me wonder where they get the money for that extra cost. So, depending on where you live, "leeching bicyclists" could be costing taxpayers more than you think.
 
Cad

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Lanx said:
i mean why tho,

i'm not an ev owner, i'm ev curious, even gonna install a 240v outlet, b/c i can, but other than long roadtrips who really uses charging stations? are there that many ppl who buy an ev and live in an apt? or have a garage and can't wire in a 240v?

if you charge at home and get a few free charges at work, charging stations should only be for ppl who roadtrip
Click to expand...
This is true, which is why this "electricity is going to be taxed lol!" thing is so ridiculous. How do they think they're going to tell if the electricity I pull from the grid is for an EV to tax it? How are they going to tell if I used my solar power to charge?

Fucking stupid. They will just get tax revenue another way.
 
BrutulTM

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Every car has an odometer in it. Easy enough to just get that reading when you register and tax you on the miles you drove if that's what they really want to do.
 
Sanrith Descartes

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ToeMissile said:
But also on the pricey side. Too lazy to look it up , but I’d guess it’s out of range for median household incomes.
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Covid has jacked up prices obviously. CPO can be done starting at $60k. Again not exactly everyman's price range.

1666401587061.png
 
Burren

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Sanrith Descartes said:
Covid has jacked up prices obviously. CPO can be done starting at $60k. Again not exactly everyman's price range.

View attachment 439244
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That's $60k AND a ton of miles on a platform that really hasn't seen long term maintenance and replacement parts yet. What's a new battery pack, $15,000 - $20,000? I think the median household income in the US is about $70k. Not sure most families will spend that much, but who knows; people are dumb.
 
Sanrith Descartes

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Burren said:
That's $60k AND a ton of miles on a platform that really hasn't seen long term maintenance and replacement parts yet. What's a new battery pack, $15,000 - $20,000? I think the median household income in the US is about $70k. Not sure most families will spend that much, but who knows; people are dumb.
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Miles arent a thing like an ICE. No fluids/gaskets/engine combustion to deal with. Its just electric motor/motors. It is one of the fundamental differences when looking at ICE vs EV.

Im not saying miles cant be an issue, but mileage isnt the same as it is ICE. Usually the high mileage CPOs were used for Uber/Lyft and that would be a concern for me more than the actual mileage. I got mine CPO with 17k on the odometer. I am coming up on 50k and have had zero issues that were Tesla related (rock in windshield). I know people who have had some issues but i also know people with chevy's who had had issues inside of 20k.

My particular MX has 8 years and 150k on the battery pack.

Guy in Germany has an older one that he uses as a cab. Clocked over a million miles on it so far.

Ps.. some higher end rides are notorious for heading into the shop (Jags and Land Rover off the top of my head). The Japs and Korean stuff tends to run forever.

insideevs.com

This Tesla Model S P85 Just Surpassed 1,500,000 Kilometers

On January 6, 2022, a Tesla Model S P85 (the oldest performance version) reached an impressive mileage milestone of 1,500,000 km (932,256 miles).
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
ToeMissile

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Burren said:
That's $60k AND a ton of miles on a platform that really hasn't seen long term maintenance and replacement parts yet. What's a new battery pack, $15,000 - $20,000? I think the median household income in the US is about $70k. Not sure most families will spend that much, but who knows; people are dumb.
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I understand your point, but you’re exaggerating a bit. 30k is high for 2 years of use but not crazy for areas that have a lot of commuting (hello east and west coast). Off warranty parts/maintenance can be pricey but I don’t know of anyone off hand that needed anything beyond tires and wipers. *shrug*

People will always spend more than they should on things, that isn’t new to EVs. Median income data: 2021, Release Tables: Real Median Household Income by State, Annual | FRED | St. Louis Fed

Model 3 starts at 47k now for the base model (270 range, ‘leather’, no autopilot). We paid 43 in early 2019, but configs we’re a little different then.

Base model was cloth seats, 210 miles range. We didn’t want cloth seats for ease of cleaning after the kids. So the next trim up was a bit more range, leather, and .5 seconds of 0-60. Enhanced autopilot was included then too. Or it was only supposed to be a 1 year ‘trial’? They never turned it off though.
 
Sanrith Descartes

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ToeMissile said:
I understand your point, but you’re exaggerating a bit. 30k is high for 2 years of use but not crazy for areas that have a lot of commuting (hello east and west coast). Off warranty parts/maintenance can be pricey but I don’t know of anyone off hand that needed anything beyond tires and wipers. *shrug*

People will always spend more than they should on things, that isn’t new to EVs. Median income data: 2021, Release Tables: Real Median Household Income by State, Annual | FRED | St. Louis Fed

Model 3 starts at 47k now for the base model (270 range, ‘leather’, no autopilot). We paid 43 in early 2019, but configs we’re a little different then.

Base model was cloth seats, 210 miles range. We didn’t want cloth seats for ease of cleaning after the kids. So the next trim up was a bit more range, leather, and .5 seconds of 0-60. Enhanced autopilot was included then too. Or it was only supposed to be a 1 year ‘trial’? They never turned it off though.
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My belief is depreciating assets shouldn't be bought new but CPO. Tesla doesnt have a "great" CPO program but its ok (1 yr 10k miles on top of whats left of factory). Especially since its electric and miles arent as big an issue, the discount you get going CPO can be significant. The new EV tax credits allowing for used EVs will make this more viable in my opinion.
 
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