The Edge
, should
Titan_Atlas
's totally useless derail on post modernism and subjectivity be censored from this thread?
- 1
The Edge , should Titan_Atlas 's totally useless derail on post modernism and subjectivity be censored from this thread?
Unless you're going by a rigid definition of art and shit, then art is subjective. As beauty and attraction are subjective. Some music like metal is deliberately ugly and noisy. You're making the mistake of fitting everything into one neat little bubble.The Edge I'll help you on your path to enlightenment. The first axiom is: Art is not Subjective, beauty and ability are completely Objective. Start there and think of it like a system that creates logical definitions.
Unless you're going by a rigid definition of art and shit, then art is subjective. As beauty and attraction are subjective. Some music like metal is deliberately ugly and noisy. You're making the mistake of fitting everything into one neat little bubble.
If you mean a very specific set of requirements for what you think should be labeled as art it would still be subjective as fuck.
You're doubling down to avoid admitting you were wrong. It is easy to break down your mistake.
Couple questions.
Do you get in fights everyday?
If No: Are you a relatively peaceful, law abiding dude?
If Yes: Are you a pacifist?
If you answered no to the last question then by your logic you are lying because you are a pacifist based on your previously assumed answers.
One more.
If a postmodern artist, meaning someone who paints weird shit because they like weird looking shit, has never heard of postmodernism (philosophical/political definition) and would disagree with those ideas if they were described to him, is that person a postmodernist?
Are you seeing the end result? You're doing the same thing you claim to reject. You would be forcing someone inside a neat little box where they don't belong. That, by your own logic, would make you ... wait for it ....
A postmodernist! Ding ding ding
Is the kind of subjectivity you're talking about dangerous? Yes. Does everything (food, art, carpentry, whatever) fall under that category? No.
There is Subjectivism (the concept that there is no external truth, everything is right and nothing is wrong, your personal whims dictate reality) and subjectivity (opinions).
I was not mirroring your points, I was making mine. With the hopes you would understand or do something besides covering your ears and repeating, "La la la you are wrong."Bad logic
Making the most egregious comparisons as though they mirror my point. It's OK challenging cultural brainwashing is hard. Eventually this will all be a history we make jokes about. How stupid we all must have been, when the lense of history is clear.
If all knowledge was merely subjective, nothing in engineering or mathematics or biochemistry or genetics or geology, any of the hard sciences, would fucking work.
I don't think Selena Gomez is good looking. There is your proof!If beauty was only subjective, there would not be a mass consensus at why the below women constantly and consistently are picked to be the most beautiful women in the world.
- Selena Gomez (USA)
- Liza Soberano (Philippines)
- Nana Im Jin-Ah (South Korea)
- Deepika Padukone (India)
- Pixie Lott (UK)
- Amber Heard (USA)
- Priyanka Chopra (India)
- Adriana Lima (Brazil)
If beauty was only subjective, there would not be a mass consensus at why the below women constantly and consistently are picked to be the most beautiful women in the world.
- Selena Gomez (USA)
- Liza Soberano (Philippines)
- Nana Im Jin-Ah (South Korea)
- Deepika Padukone (India)
- Pixie Lott (UK)
- Amber Heard (USA)
- Priyanka Chopra (India)
- Adriana Lima (Brazil)
That doesn't mean is not subjective.If beauty was only subjective, there would not be a mass consensus at why the below women constantly and consistently are picked to be the most beautiful women in the world.
- Selena Gomez (USA)
- Liza Soberano (Philippines)
- Nana Im Jin-Ah (South Korea)
- Deepika Padukone (India)
- Pixie Lott (UK)
- Amber Heard (USA)
- Priyanka Chopra (India)
- Adriana Lima (Brazil)
I was not mirroring your points, I was making mine. With the hopes you would understand or do something besides covering your ears and repeating, "La la la you are wrong."
From the atheism thread where we've been having the same discussion, bro
Those are bits of objective knowledge. The two you mentioned are not.
Aesthetic is subjective. Beauty is subjective. These things are not objective unless you limit their definition, which would make you guilty of subjectivity because you are limiting the definition according to your taste.
Go ahead and explain how these are objective. Don't just say they are because you say so. Explain it.
Again. There is a difference between subjectivity (your opinions) and what you were referring to. It's like peacefulness and pacifism. They are not the same.
Here, from the lady who pretty much started this shit, who is outdated by the way.
Subjectivism — Ayn Rand Lexicon
^
I completely agree with that and have for years.
All that said, I knew I was wasting my time when I got into this talk.
I'm glad no one claimed they are just as beautiful.Subjectivity is like Socialism it works in very small scale and even then the risk of Authoritarianism is just under the surface. Using it as a blanket qualifier for an entire field is incredibly destructive. If we are say comparing Charlize Theron to Margot Robbie then Subjectivism has a limited valuable use. When you are claiming Rosie O'Donnell is just as beautiful as Margot Robbie, you have lost your damn mind. That is not Subjective. Our entire society makes these judgements everyday yet philosophically you are willing to accept a false premise.
There we go!Gurdjieff's Theory of Art
Just because there is no conversation about something because the dominant social position is that it is an axiom. Does not make it so. Those fields you linked from the Atheism thread are all vigorously debated. This needs to be put into the sunlight.
There we go!
Still, this is one man's theory of art no less. You and I can make intellectualized theories about objective sandwiches too. If it sounds smart enough someone will buy into it, I guarantee you. Interesting this guy was a mystic, the antithesis of objectivity. I won't wave it off though, I will read it. I'm sure there will be some cool ideas in there.
I have and continue to read tons of old stuff. The Eddas, Chaucer in Middle English, the Decameron (what Canterbury Tales was based on), Anglo Saxon Chronicle, Book of Invasions, Gesta Danorum, geoffery of monmouth, pliny etc.Oddly enough the basis for my questioning is Politics. You should read old Political philosophy about Soft Fascism, or Cameralism or many others. You can make very good arguments that Monarchies work better than Democracies. That Government should be structured like a Corporation and a bunch of other arguments. The thing is people don't read old stuff so they assume in a linear fashion that our arguments are the best. Historically you learn that everything we fight today has been fought before. The Subjectivity of Art is an absolute and I abhor absolutes. Everything has positive and negatives and my guess is we need to establish Objective measures of all forms of art. Then we can discuss the small subjectivities.
Oddly enough the basis for my questioning is Politics. You should read old Political philosophy about Soft Fascism, or Cameralism or many others. You can make very good arguments that Monarchies work better than Democracies. That Government should be structured like a Corporation and a bunch of other arguments. The thing is people don't read old stuff so they assume in a linear fashion that our arguments are the best. Historically you learn that everything we fight today has been fought before. The Subjectivity of Art is an absolute and I abhor absolutes. Everything has positive and negatives and my guess is we need to establish Objective measures of all forms of art. Then we can discuss the small subjectivities.