Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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The Edge
, should
Titan_Atlas
's totally useless derail on post modernism and subjectivity be censored from this thread?- 1
Censorship and Art
- Thread starter The Edge
- Start date
The Edge
, should
Titan_Atlas
's totally useless derail on post modernism and subjectivity be censored from this thread?
Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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This seems to be a useless post.
Feanor
Karazhan Raider
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Unless you're going by a rigid definition of art and shit, then art is subjective. As beauty and attraction are subjective. Some music like metal is deliberately ugly and noisy. You're making the mistake of fitting everything into one neat little bubble.
If you mean a very specific set of requirements for what you think should be labeled as art it would still be subjective as fuck.
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Subjectivity is like Socialism it works in very small scale and even then the risk of Authoritarianism is just under the surface. Using it as a blanket qualifier for an entire field is incredibly destructive. If we are say comparing Charlize Theron to Margot Robbie then Subjectivism has a limited valuable use. When you are claiming Rosie O'Donnell is just as beautiful as Margot Robbie, you have lost your damn mind. That is not Subjective. Our entire society makes these judgements everyday yet philosophically you are willing to accept a false premise.
Feanor
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You're doubling down to avoid admitting you were wrong. It is easy to break down your mistake.
Couple questions.
Do you get in fights everyday?
If No: Are you a relatively peaceful, law abiding dude?
If Yes: Are you a pacifist?
If you answered no to the last question then by your logic you are lying because you are a pacifist based on your previously assumed answers.
One more.
If a postmodern artist, meaning someone who paints weird shit because they like weird looking shit, has never heard of postmodernism (philosophical/political definition) and would disagree with those ideas if they were described to him, is that person a postmodernist?
Are you seeing the end result? You're doing the same thing you claim to reject. You would be forcing someone inside a neat little box where they don't belong. That, by your own logic, would make you ... wait for it ....
A postmodernist! Ding ding ding
Is the kind of subjectivity you're talking about dangerous? Yes. Does everything (food, art, carpentry, whatever) fall under that category? No.
There is Subjectivism (the concept that there is no external truth, everything is right and nothing is wrong, your personal whims dictate reality) and subjectivity (opinions).
Couple questions.
Do you get in fights everyday?
If No: Are you a relatively peaceful, law abiding dude?
If Yes: Are you a pacifist?
If you answered no to the last question then by your logic you are lying because you are a pacifist based on your previously assumed answers.
One more.
If a postmodern artist, meaning someone who paints weird shit because they like weird looking shit, has never heard of postmodernism (philosophical/political definition) and would disagree with those ideas if they were described to him, is that person a postmodernist?
Are you seeing the end result? You're doing the same thing you claim to reject. You would be forcing someone inside a neat little box where they don't belong. That, by your own logic, would make you ... wait for it ....
A postmodernist! Ding ding ding
Is the kind of subjectivity you're talking about dangerous? Yes. Does everything (food, art, carpentry, whatever) fall under that category? No.
There is Subjectivism (the concept that there is no external truth, everything is right and nothing is wrong, your personal whims dictate reality) and subjectivity (opinions).
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Bad logic
Making the most egregious comparisons as though they mirror my point. It's OK challenging cultural brainwashing is hard. Eventually this will all be a history we make jokes about. How stupid we all must have been, when the lense of history is clear.
Feanor
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I was not mirroring your points, I was making mine. With the hopes you would understand or do something besides covering your ears and repeating, "La la la you are wrong."
From the atheism thread where we've been having the same discussion, bro
Those are bits of objective knowledge. The two you mentioned are not.
Aesthetic is subjective. Beauty is subjective. These things are not objective unless you limit their definition, which would make you guilty of subjectivity because you are limiting the definition according to your taste.
Go ahead and explain how these are objective. Don't just say they are because you say so. Explain it.
Again. There is a difference between subjectivity (your opinions) and what you were referring to. It's like peacefulness and pacifism. They are not the same.
Here, from the lady who pretty much started this shit, who is outdated by the way.
Subjectivism — Ayn Rand Lexicon
^
I completely agree with that and have for years.
All that said, I knew I was wasting my time when I got into this talk.
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If beauty was only subjective, there would not be a mass consensus at why the below women constantly and consistently are picked to be the most beautiful women in the world.
- Selena Gomez (USA)
- Liza Soberano (Philippines)
- Nana Im Jin-Ah (South Korea)
- Deepika Padukone (India)
- Pixie Lott (UK)
- Amber Heard (USA)
- Priyanka Chopra (India)
- Adriana Lima (Brazil)
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Feanor
Karazhan Raider
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I don't think Selena Gomez is good looking. There is your proof!
I took beauty to mean artistic aesthetic. In terms of female beauty, yeah it's partially objective I would say. Depending on the population. Attraction is even more subjective. It has also changed over the course of history, though certain standards of symmetry etc. have always been around. So no, it's not completely subjective. But it's not objective either. Objectivity means fact. In that sense, no, beauty is not objective.
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zombiewizardhawk
Potato del Grande
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Trump's Staff
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That doesn't mean is not subjective.
The degree and matter in which beauty is rated, or felt, is a subjective one.
Ok out of your list, which one has the highest quality of beauty..
"That is like your opinion man"
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Gurdjieff's Theory of Art
Just because there is no conversation about something because the dominant social position is that it is an axiom. Does not make it so. Those fields you linked from the Atheism thread are all vigorously debated. This needs to be put into the sunlight.
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Feanor
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There we go!
Still, this is one man's theory of art no less. You and I can make intellectualized theories about objective sandwiches too. If it sounds smart enough someone will buy into it, I guarantee you. Interesting this guy was a mystic, the antithesis of objectivity. I won't wave it off though, I will read it. I'm sure there will be some cool ideas in there.
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Oddly enough the basis for my questioning is Politics. You should read old Political philosophy about Soft Fascism, or Cameralism or many others. You can make very good arguments that Monarchies work better than Democracies. That Government should be structured like a Corporation and a bunch of other arguments. The thing is people don't read old stuff so they assume in a linear fashion that our arguments are the best. Historically you learn that everything we fight today has been fought before. The Subjectivity of Art is an absolute and I abhor absolutes. Everything has positive and negatives and my guess is we need to establish Objective measures of all forms of art. Then we can discuss the small subjectivities.
Feanor
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You handed me proof of what I was saying. I'm reading the paper atm. Here is an example of some guy limiting art to a set of requirements according to his whim, in this case "functionality, objective truth and soul through the Taj Mahal" whatever that means. Still subjective. It's the same thing your grandparents did with Elvis and The Beatles.
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Feanor
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I have and continue to read tons of old stuff. The Eddas, Chaucer in Middle English, the Decameron (what Canterbury Tales was based on), Anglo Saxon Chronicle, Book of Invasions, Gesta Danorum, geoffery of monmouth, pliny etc.
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Lendarios
Trump's Staff
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Death is absolute, do you abhor death?
Plenty of things are absolutes, in both the philosophical world and the physical one.
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