Crowfall

Utnayan · Feb 17, 2016

Palum_sl said:
I think you need to look at comparable production timelines though. You are making claims about a process that is largely obscured from public view and the only detailed accounts are screw ups or high level retrospectives.

It's like peaking into the design department of a major car manufacturer and crying over the use of dev mule cars while some dude roughs out sheet metal for a prototype two years before the refresh model is due.

All I see is a lot of Gordon Walton admitting (Which is good mind you) all his mistakes with UO, SWG, and SWTOR. The thing is, he should have learned from the get go, but continued to jam down shit decision after shit decision. You can't teach an old dog new tricks here. I am sure you can find the links where he takes full credit for the NGE debacle (Then was fired and then again fired from Bioware) and I already know he was the reason why SWTOR failed when he made his choice for an engine placing a 200 million dollar project on a beta engine which anyone working at Bioware - Austin can tell you at the time, they seriously and quite literally prayed the thing would compile after every patch. Why? He wanted to buy from his buddy.

These are epic mistakes. Continued to be made over and over again. It's very easy to see that when you take the same people responsible for the major mistakes made in SWG, Warhammer, and SWTOR, (After they should have learned from any of those) and don't, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. This continues to happen every, single, game. And worse? They are now using consumer funds since no one else will publish them. This goes for this team, Jacobs, McQuaid. No one will touch them because they already know they are full of shit, and they have seen the results of their investments. (Aside from EA angel investing with Crowfall - which is what I hear is driving the pay to win microtransaction addition you have not heard about yet)

Now as far as being a decent human? I am sure they are fine people in that regard. As far as developers when they put on the work hat? As far as ethics go within the industry? Well, I guess you could chalk that up to the environment they learned it. You see, SOE was like a mom or a dad and they were the kids. They learned the wrong way, and they cannot unlearn what they have been brought up as. There are a few that break out, eat their humble pie, but I guarantee you, these people are not it. The game looks great on paper? Anyone here with a pulse can do that. Peter Molyneux became a household name due to over-promising and never delivering.

Draegan go away. Let the adults talk.

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

I'd have more faith if they just shut down the pre-alpha combat testing so that those resources could be directed towards, you know, actually making a game. My gripe isn't the state of the build, it's that there hasn't been anything of note added that shows me these guys are hard at work.

Draegan_sl · Feb 17, 2016

Woolygimp_sl said:
I don't really know how much data they're gaining from all of these public tests that they're running on the same map, with the same archetypes, with the same format.

Honestly, the whole pre-alpha combat testing does seem like something to appease founders and pick up cash, rather than actually test and progress the development cycle. I would think differently if at least some aspects of the game were in, more classes, full textures, or at least some semblance of trying to remove the lag. In six months, the only change has been textures and only a few.

They've run the test several times a week for half a year without change. How much information do they need? If you don't think all that time they spend setting it up, playing, and monitoring it doesn't take away from development time then... Hell even adding gear that makes a difference would be nice. I'm tired of getting orange drops that give +13hp to my 8,000 hp.

I would assume they are using all those connection to break things as much as possible. It's mostly server/client/network engineering stuff that they are testing. Then there is the obvious combat stuff too. Currently combat sucks, but it's getting better in small parts. It used to be like fighting in dog shit, now it's actually more responsive than an old Atari.

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

Draegan_sl said:
I would assume they are using all those connection to break things as much as possible. It's mostly server/client/network engineering stuff that they are testing. Then there is the obvious combat stuff too. Currently combat sucks, but it's getting better in small parts. It used to be like fighting in dog shit, now it's actually more responsive than an old Atari.

Yeah, I understand...but over six months? Are they saying they have a live build for the actual game and we just aren't able to test it yet, because at this rate it'll take twelve years to release anything remotely polished and playable. I'd assume that adding a few textures to the ground is, at most, a couple weeks worth of work.

I'm hoping these guys pull it off, I'm a founder after all. But I have a healthy amount of skepticism.

Draegan_sl · Feb 17, 2016

You overestimate what small game studios can do in so short of a time. They've done quite a bit in a very short time. For any "AAA" studio making an MMO, you spend the first year or two just deciding on an engine and infrastructure. They've have that done, have a server set up for out side play and already are working on additional systems. There's also quite a bit they aren't showing yet I suspect from other archetypes to destruction stuff.

I'm skeptic too, but you have to realize a majority of the game systems they are calling for don't require a hand crafting world with hand crafted content. It's all basically randomly generated. That type of content and it's polish takes the bulk of time and money in any MMO production. If they can actually get the base infrastructure down (good client, fast response, good networking between server and client and all that stuff) and make combat really enjoyable, they'll enjoy a small bit of success at the least I think.

My main concern is their combat design and philosphy. Personally I love BDO and they've been going towards standard LMB/RMB and 6 hotbar buttons. And nearly linear combos with two buttons. I don't like that setup personally. I think it's archaic and unwieldy but that's a personal opinion and not a right/wrong opinion.

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

they'll enjoy a small bit of success at the least I think.

I don't mean to nitpick and be an ass, but quantifying your comments in such a way really shows the dire state the industry is in. You "think" they "might" enjoy a "small" amount of success. Even you seem to have doubts, you're just a little more hopeful than UT.

...in the mean time, maybe I'll see you in BDO.

Draegan_sl · Feb 17, 2016

Not really. Any project has risk associated with it. I would say that about any consumer product.

To clarify: I believe there is a baseline this game needs to go from mediocre/failure to cross into success. That baseline is a game that is responsive and crisp. I.e. your server/client setup isn't shit. And that the combat is fun to play.

I'm already a believer on the design of the actual gameplay which is the campaign structure so I'm assuming that's going to be there in some form or another. If the campaign structure and rulesets are really fun and well built then it'll go from a small success to a pretty decent one.

I'm not holding my breath only because I don't waste my time with that shit anymore these days. I have too much to do with my daily life than worry about some game that will come out in a year or more.

Greyform · Feb 17, 2016

Cinge_sl said:
Ut is a psychologist's dream. Try to figure out where all that fanatical hatred comes from that is over a simple group of game developers. There has to be a reason, as it goes way beyond a gamer passionate about games.

It's his ego, Sylas called it. UT calls everything shit and since there is not a single game you can't point out the shit in, he's here stroking his ego telling everyone how he knew it all along. I truly blame Brad for his epic failure on VG for the whole damn mess. While we all believed VG was going to be epic, UT kept calling it shit, and shit is was. Now with that bit of success and his ego in full bloom he's still looking for Mr Brownstone and just keeps tryin' ta get a little better than before.

Well UT it won't you peaked bud, your fucking addiction to "I told you this game was going to be shit" is tired old bullshit. But hey Glory Days, Right man?

Utnayan · Feb 17, 2016

Greyform_sl said:
It's his ego, Sylas called it. UT calls everything shit and since there is not a single game you can't point out the shit in, he's here stroking his ego telling everyone how he knew it all along. I truly blame Brad for his epic failure on VG for the whole damn mess. While we all believed VG was going to be epic, UT kept calling it shit, and shit is was. Now with that bit of success and his ego in full bloom he's still looking for Mr Brownstone and just keeps tryin' ta get a little better than before.

Well UT it won't you peaked bud, your fucking addiction to "I told you this game was going to be shit" is tired old bullshit. But hey Glory Days, Right man?

You really must think I take this whole internet thing seriously. With that said - Go away. Palum and I are having an adult discussion. Go troll NeoGaf.

Draegan you talk of risk? There is no risk. They are using customer cash combined with EA angel investment dollars.

They have no risk at all

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

Greyform_sl said:
It's his ego, Sylas called it. UT calls everything shit and since there is not a single game you can't point out the shit in, he's here stroking his ego telling everyone how he knew it all along. I truly blame Brad for his epic failure on VG for the whole damn mess. While we all believed VG was going to be epic, UT kept calling it shit, and shit is was. Now with that bit of success and his ego in full bloom he's still looking for Mr Brownstone and just keeps tryin' ta get a little better than before.

Well UT it won't you peaked bud, your fucking addiction to "I told you this game was going to be shit" is tired old bullshit. But hey Glory Days, Right man?

It depends if he went into the Overwatch / XCOM 2 / (other successful games) thread and said the same thing. I don't think he did, but yeah you don't need a crystal ball to call every modern MMORPG shit. Even though you don't need to be a fortune teller to make those predictions, he's really only peaked after he's called a game shit...that ended up not being shit.

Barab · Feb 17, 2016

I hear where you are coming from wooly but there have been updates every testing cycle most importantly delivering the first of client control, tweaking abilities consistently (confessor ae, champs stun, legionare heal, adjust fall damage etc) to fixing regen, inventory bugs etc. The ranger archetype is complete and will be playable as well come siege testing at the end of March.

Hunger combat testing has been a lot of the same thing for months. If it wasn't for really enjoying playing the knight along with a few friends in group play I wouldn't be so eager to log in. I think it helps that in my opinion the level of group on group / guild on guild pvp play has risen across the board the last few weeks. Guilds such as winterblades, surgoi, lotd, hah, FOE, LOD etc really bring it, Destrin's group champ confessor stun Fire ae combo play is an impressive site.

Utnayan · Feb 17, 2016

Woolygimp_sl said:
It depends if he went into the Overwatch / XCOM 2 / (other successful games) thread and said the same thing. I don't think he did, but yeah you don't need a crystal ball to call every modern MMORPG shit. Even though you don't need a crystal ball to make predictions like that in this genre, he's really only peaked after he's called a game shit...that ended up not being shit.

Actually I love Overwatch and Xcom 2

The next "Other game" that I predict will be shit will be Far Cry Primal. Don't mind Greyform. He fails to read the other forums where I praise games that deserve it (Quite a few) along with their development staff. The broken record is with this genre, and that's because the same broken records keep designing the same broken ass games and people here always expect it to be different when change 956,302 comes around to the same dipshits they followed the last time. It's fucking ridiculously comical.

Phase 1: Dipshit developers (Usually from SOE-Austin, SOE, or Mythic/Bioware/Bioware Austin (Since they all merged anyway)) leave company after failure. Consumers pissed.

Phase 2: Secrety start a new game under a new company in the same genre hoping no one notices or follows the actual people forming the company.

Phase 3. Dipshit developers start a viral PR campaign with paperback ideas. Start a kickstarter for crowd funding.

Phase 4: Fanboys and people that work for the company itself start forum campaigns to shout down any haters.

Phase 5: Funding comes in - trickles of information and slow development processes begin. Project starts taking various turns because it is ran by morons who had no idea what they wanted to make in the first place aside from paper notes on a stripper's underwear from the night before.

Phase 6: Utnayan comes.

Phase 7: Utnayan reminds everyone of the truth. Points out the people behind the company, reminds them how they have failed over and over the last 20 years.

Phase 8: Attack of the dipshits/fanboys.

Phase 9: Game releases. Community shocked as it is complete shit.

Phase 10. Company shuts down - people leave, form a new company. Repeat Phase 1.

Welcome to the MMORPG genre.

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

Utnayan_sl said:
Actually I love Overwatch and Xcom 2

The next "Other game" that I predict will be shit will be Far Cry Primal. Don't mind Greyform. He fails to read the other forums where I praise games that deserve it (Quite a few) along with their development staff. The broken record is with this genre, and that's because the same broken records keep designing the same broken ass games and people here always expect it to be different when change 956,302 comes around to the same dipshits they followed the last time. It's comical.

That franchise peaked with Far Cry 2. I hated the 3rd, and I played fifteen minutes of the 4th before I moved on.

So much success in game development is from the people 'under' the bosses, who come forward with good ideas that don't get shot down. It's like the saying, "generals don't win battles, soldiers do." Yeah, project leads get all the credit and their direction and leadership plays a large role in just how much work gets done, but I've found the peons play a huge role in just how well things come together. Most of the great ideas in say Ultima Online, did not come from Richard Garriott.

I think the same could be said for Everquest and Asheron's Call. As projects got bigger, the leads took on more responsibility and ended up with an iron-fist, shooting down everything that didn't fit with their vision.

This was an eye opening article:
Richard Garriott on why game designers suck - PC Gamer

But the irony is that RG didn't know he was also talking about himself.

Greyform · Feb 17, 2016

Utnayan_sl said:
You really must think I take this whole internet thing seriously. With that said - Go away. Palum and I are having an adult discussion. Go troll NeoGaf.

Then Palum was one adult short.. You're welcome.

Utnayan · Feb 17, 2016

Woolygimp_sl said:
That franchise peaked with Far Cry 2. I hated the 3rd, and I played fifteen minutes of the 4th before I moved on.

So much success in game development is from the people 'under' the bosses, who come forward with good ideas that don't get shot down. It's like the saying, "generals don't win battles, soldiers do." Yeah, project leads get all the credit and their direction and leadership plays a large role in just how much work gets done, but I've found the peons play a huge role in just how well things come together. Most of the great ideas in say Ultima Online, did not come from Richard Garriott.

I think the same could be said for Everquest and Asheron's Call. As projects got bigger, the leads took on more responsibility and ended up with an iron-fist, shooting down everything that didn't fit with their vision.

This was an eye opening article:
Richard Garriott on why game designers suck - PC Gamer

But the irony is that RG didn't know he was also talking about himself.

Yeah most of the developers (Associates and below the team lead) are the ones with the greatest ideas and throughput on how to follow though. Thisgenre specifically, and the egos of the relics, have forced a top down development structure where those ideas (Which can be easily executed upon) are shot down for the over all ego of the team lead or creative director. It's why this genre is in the state it is in, and why WoW did so well. The people that made the game has a bottom up design philosophy at Blizz, and everyone from QA and Customer Service all the way to Metzen can input some very valuable ideas and have all their voices heard, and credit appropriated. It's also why they are one of the most successful companies. (Rockstar and Projekt and Remedy also employ this method. Which really at this point is common sense. These people however do not. Which is why, and makes sense, we continue to see the shit we see release after release because it is the same handful of people driving down those pitiful design docs while the highlight of their day is going through their old D&D modules.

Woolygimp · Feb 17, 2016

Utnayan · Feb 17, 2016

Woolygimp_sl said:

Completely 100% true

Sylas · Feb 17, 2016

Just rickshaw this faggot until this game reaches alpha at least, where his fucking opinions about the success or failure of the game actually start to be relevant

Cinge · Feb 17, 2016

Shh, it's entertaining to watch someone completely lose their mind over such minimal things.

Utnayan · Feb 18, 2016

The sinking of an entire genre because of these assholes.

"Minimal"

My guess is you wouldn't be thinking it was minimal if we had about 1,000 Kaplan and Afraisiabi's running the genre since day 1 and saw the results of that compared to the shit we got outside of World of Warcraft from 1997 with these unethical shits. You haven't the slightest clue of the games in this genre you never got to play because of these pricks.

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