Death of a Game - Everquest franchise

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Tuco

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Flobee said:
Is it possible to separate solo and group progression without one invalidating the other entirely?

Figure that out and maybe we can have our cake and eat it too.
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Part of the problem with this is that if you don't force players to group with each other, and instead motivate them (ex: by having separate solo/group progression) then they will just solo and find the thing boring because they're missing the whole point.
 
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iannis

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Flobee said:
Is it possible to separate solo and group progression without one invalidating the other entirely?

Figure that out and maybe we can have our cake and eat it too.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but you basically have to make two games. And sell it for the price of one.
 
Malakriss

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Leveling content will never be equal under the current design standards. If solo is as good or nearly as good as group content for leveling speed then players will avoid having to wait or rely on others and stay solo. If grouping is faster than there will always be complaining by people who don't have dedicated friends or guild to utilize it.

At best they can try to make enough incentives for both in max level content, which like Iannis said is essentially making two games. But if they can snare both types of player population then the microtransaction whoring has a wider audience too.
 
Regime

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Flobee said:
Is it possible to separate solo and group progression without one invalidating the other entirely?
Click to expand...


Absolutely. It’s called my twink monk with SODS and sleeper robe KSing your group in Paludal Caverns.
 
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Locnar

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iannis said:
Yeah, but you basically have to make two games. And sell it for the price of one.
Click to expand...

Basically yes. But who is to say it should cost anymore to make? Something as simple as switching the pvp switch on a server transforms a solo-never-talk-to-anyone community wasteland into a please-be-my-friend-because-soloing-is-suicide community building wonderland.

Its all about plugging in the basic fundamentals. Let the people with only 30 mins to play after work stick to the ezmode soloer server. OR let them get into crafting and setting up shops.

If you give soloers even 50 percent access to the content of groups, you've gone a long way to destroying your group game.
 
A

a_skeleton_03

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I don't think you guys understand that every MMO is "two games" there is the leveling and casual aspect of just farming mats and stuff and then there is the "end game" whatever that is for that specific game.
 
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Ukerric

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Flobee said:
Is it possible to separate solo and group progression without one invalidating the other entirely?

Figure that out and maybe we can have our cake and eat it too.
Click to expand...
You can't. If both modes yield the same reward, the solo mode wins because the group progression carries an intrinsic cost that requires it to be "better" than solo unless it dwindles to nothing.

The only thing you can is have both yielding different types of reward. Typically, you'd make group yield loot and solo yield cash for example. Then you get the group people selling loot to the soloers (to pay for services, like consumables?). Of course, the hardcores would end up doing both, but you can"t beat the hardcores, so there.
 
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Qhue

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The other option is to have solo stuff result in improvements that are solo oriented and the group stuff give improvements that are group oriented. Imagine if they had something equivalent to the Warmode talents but which only functioned in groups or only functioned when not grouped.
 
Neranja

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Qhue said:
The other option is to have solo stuff result in improvements that are solo oriented and the group stuff give improvements that are group oriented. Imagine if they had something equivalent to the Warmode talents but which only functioned in groups or only functioned when not grouped.
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EverQuest had those dang "leadership AA", which was a nice idea on paper, but you had to grind out the AA exp. Which, in the end, took xp away from your own AAs and power progression.

I think the best way would be to have solo and group content be somewhat interdependent, and to have those people meet (at least in cities or hubs). It makes the world feel alive. Encourage solo casuals to dip into group content. For example, FFXIV does have a solo main story quest (with solo instances), but requires you to visit group content to progress the story and unlock the main quest further.

On the other hand, you really have to be careful about your design. For example, Blizzard seems to have deduced from the data they gathered that players with active guilds and raid participation have longer subscriptions and don't unsubscribe as easily when there is a content drought. How they tried to funnel people into raids with LFR and into guilds with the guild perks (and leveling guilds) backfired massively: it killed small family style guilds and casual (but fixed team) normal mode raiding.
 
Vanessa

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Congrats; if you're reading this you've made it here alive and are living in the future!

resident-evil-2-remake-comparison-old-vs-new-5-768x432.jpg


We loved EQ, and EQ loved us twenty(ish) years ago. Games look incomprehensibly better now, but the mechanics are still almost exactly the same... we still use controllers and keyboard/mouse combos to game (VR is still far from standardized).

My question to you all:

If Everquest up to Velious (literally the height of EQ... mid 2001 pre-Luclin was the peak of subs) was magically re-released now and was exactly the same game as it was in 2001 but looked like RE2, would you play it?

Essentially just talking about Everquest with a heavenly makeover... You're still camping the ghoul lord for a Yak, casting Ice Comet under Naggy's belly, and crying RL tears over Dozekar tears, but holeeeey shit does it look good. I mean, photorealistic good. You can see the shine on tae ew lizard's skin in the Feerott. You can see bloody meat dangling off of undead froglok's bellies. You can see realistic and gorgeous lighting effects on your Sarnak Battle Shield as you run under a torch. You leave footprints in Velious' Western Wastes. Spell effects run smooth and look current gen. Even your rat ears and iron ration icons look terrific in your tink bag. Oh, and Ran Flamespinner is still mopping up your pickclaw goblin trains... he just looks much, much snazzier doing it.

Exact same game. Same camps. Same loot. Looks absolutely amazing now though.

Do you play it? Do you love it?
 
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Cukernaut

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Vanessa said:
Congrats; if you're reading this you've made it here alive and are living in the future!

View attachment 188058

We loved EQ, and EQ loved us twenty(ish) years ago. Games look incomprehensibly better now, but the mechanics are still almost exactly the same... we still use controllers and keyboard/mouse combos to game (VR is still far from standardized).

My question to you all:

If Everquest up to Velious (literally the height of EQ... mid 2001 pre-Luclin was the peak of subs) was magically re-released now and was exactly the same game as it was in 2001 but looked like RE2, would you play it?

Essentially just talking about Everquest with a heavenly makeover... You're still camping the ghoul lord for a Yak, casting Ice Comet under Naggy's belly, and crying RL tears over Dozekar tears, but holeeeey shit does it look good. I mean, photorealistic good. You can see the shine on tae ew lizard's skin in the Feerott. You can see bloody meat dangling off of undead froglok's bellies. You can see realistic and gorgeous lighting effects on your Sarnak Battle Shield as you run under a torch. You leave footprints in Velious' Western Wastes. Spell effects run smooth and look current gen. Even your rat ears and iron ration icons look terrific in your tink bag. Oh, and Ran Flamespinner is still mopping up your pickclaw goblin trains... he just looks much, much snazzier doing it.

Exact same game. Same camps. Same loot. Looks absolutely amazing now though.

Do you play it? Do you love it?
Click to expand...

Im all over it. I think they add to it though some and change some mechanics and add a few wrinkles just like the new re2 allegedly. But then again you are asking the wrong people we are all here from those same roots initially and we are captured as an audience by tlps currently. The question is would that rope in new ppls. Do I enjoy it for a year between expacs? Don’t know.

Also fuck aas
 
Tuco

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Vanessa said:
Congrats; if you're reading this you've made it here alive and are living in the future!

View attachment 188058

We loved EQ, and EQ loved us twenty(ish) years ago. Games look incomprehensibly better now, but the mechanics are still almost exactly the same... we still use controllers and keyboard/mouse combos to game (VR is still far from standardized).

My question to you all:

If Everquest up to Velious (literally the height of EQ... mid 2001 pre-Luclin was the peak of subs) was magically re-released now and was exactly the same game as it was in 2001 but looked like RE2, would you play it?

Essentially just talking about Everquest with a heavenly makeover... You're still camping the ghoul lord for a Yak, casting Ice Comet under Naggy's belly, and crying RL tears over Dozekar tears, but holeeeey shit does it look good. I mean, photorealistic good. You can see the shine on tae ew lizard's skin in the Feerott. You can see bloody meat dangling off of undead froglok's bellies. You can see realistic and gorgeous lighting effects on your Sarnak Battle Shield as you run under a torch. You leave footprints in Velious' Western Wastes. Spell effects run smooth and look current gen. Even your rat ears and iron ration icons look terrific in your tink bag. Oh, and Ran Flamespinner is still mopping up your pickclaw goblin trains... he just looks much, much snazzier doing it.

Exact same game. Same camps. Same loot. Looks absolutely amazing now though.

Do you play it? Do you love it?
Click to expand...
No. EQ is a text-based game with a graphical front-end. Even in 2018 nearly everything in it is text + abilities/spells. The graphics wouldn't add much.
 
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Ravishing

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Vanessa said:
Congrats; if you're reading this you've made it here alive and are living in the future!

View attachment 188058

We loved EQ, and EQ loved us twenty(ish) years ago. Games look incomprehensibly better now, but the mechanics are still almost exactly the same... we still use controllers and keyboard/mouse combos to game (VR is still far from standardized).

My question to you all:

If Everquest up to Velious (literally the height of EQ... mid 2001 pre-Luclin was the peak of subs) was magically re-released now and was exactly the same game as it was in 2001 but looked like RE2, would you play it?

Essentially just talking about Everquest with a heavenly makeover... You're still camping the ghoul lord for a Yak, casting Ice Comet under Naggy's belly, and crying RL tears over Dozekar tears, but holeeeey shit does it look good. I mean, photorealistic good. You can see the shine on tae ew lizard's skin in the Feerott. You can see bloody meat dangling off of undead froglok's bellies. You can see realistic and gorgeous lighting effects on your Sarnak Battle Shield as you run under a torch. You leave footprints in Velious' Western Wastes. Spell effects run smooth and look current gen. Even your rat ears and iron ration icons look terrific in your tink bag. Oh, and Ran Flamespinner is still mopping up your pickclaw goblin trains... he just looks much, much snazzier doing it.

Exact same game. Same camps. Same loot. Looks absolutely amazing now though.

Do you play it? Do you love it?
Click to expand...


EQ, and MMOs in general, are very reliant on an active population.

For nostalgia reasons, yes I'd play it, but if I put myself in someone's shoes that never played or heard of EQ before, I might try it, but I doubt it would hook me at all.

Nostalgia is one thing, but playing the brutal world of EQ, looking for groups, grinding for hours, etc etc... nobody's got time for that in the current gaming climate.
 
Vandyn

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Ravishing said:
EQ, and MMOs in general, are very reliant on an active population.

For nostalgia reasons, yes I'd play it, but if I put myself in someone's shoes that never played or heard of EQ before, I might try it, but I doubt it would hook me at all.

Nostalgia is one thing, but playing the brutal world of EQ, looking for groups, grinding for hours, etc etc... nobody's got time for that in the current gaming climate.
Click to expand...

This has always been my issue the countless times I've revisited the game since I initially stopped playing in 2004. Since then the only driving force for me to load the game up is nostalgia. That literally lasts 1-2 weeks and then it's over. Then the realization comes that I don't know have the time and patience for this game anymore, it's not like how it was back in 2000 and there is just way too much other stuff to play in shorter time intervals where I'll get a sense of accomplishment. For someone like me it even if I wanted to pretend like I could enjoy the game like I did back then, the circumstances around me are different and are not changing. Back then I was single, had loads of free time, no kids. From a gaming perspective (and this gets forgotten a lot), I didn't have the game options then as I do now. I didn't have a 900+ Steam library. It's just different. That's why nostalgia only lasts for so long.
 
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W

Wynn

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Locnar said:
All those "convenient" things helped to remove interdependence between players and are contrary to community building. The farther your game gets away from being a community, the more gimmicks and throw away content you have to pump out to keep people interested, but its always a losing battle when you go down that road of community killing.

In this day and age, I think the best bet (lets use Pantheon for the example) is for Pantheon to to create the modern EQ they are basically making AND on top of that release special servers with all those hardcore elements day 1 of EQ had. Call them the "old school" or "hardcore" or whatever you want servers, but let us choose if we want to play on the ezmode (standard) server, or the oldschool (corpse runs, no maps, HARSH death penalty, slow xp, only one account allowed per server, throw the kitchen sink of 1990's mud mechanics in there, etc) server.

This is the only hope I think we have of really getting and recreating late 1990's style MMO community. and pvp and non-pvp flavors too, of course.
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Such a common narrative especially in the Pantheon fan crowd, and I frankly could not disagree more. I sunk a ton of time into EQ from 1999-2004, then I went to WoW. I never once missed the hardcore "forced interdependence" of EQ, and my vanilla EQ server had arguably more community than my EQ server ever did. In fact, as someone who mained a class in EQ that wasn't desired in group content, a lot of my memories of EQ were not getting to do a lot of stuff because I could LFG in /ooc, /gu, etc for hours every night and never get a single offer, so I had to find ways to solo and make my own fun. No class in Vanilla WoW was excluded this way, and I actually think grouping at max level was more common, easier, and more rewarding than in EQ. That's with a huge number of quality of life improvements (flight paths, no corpse runs, every character can gate etc) that WoW had.
 
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Locnar

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Its such a common narrative in the Pantheon fan crowd because it is what we want. While you look back to 1999 and feel sad you were <insert unwanted/hard class here> I look back as a troll shadowknight in rags on day 1 (on a pvp server!!!!) and every achievement was all the more rich and rewarding because I was playing on hard core mode. Heck, they even use to tell you in character creation that such and such class/race/deity choice was easy/normal/hard to play.

Keep that quality of life on the wow servers where everyone gets a trophy and a group.

Let us have one last game with the old hard ways. Like Brad use to say all the time on the vanguard forums "maybe this is not the game for you..".
 
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W

Wynn

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Right but you want it because you're wrong and don't actually understand anything.

Also like there should be some sort of general rule about MMO discussions, anyone who played on EQ1 PVP servers should be disregarded as they basically represent a type of mental illness that has no real association with reality or what should happen in games for human beings.
 
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