Diablo 3 - Reaper of Souls

Deathwing · Nov 25, 2018

a c i d.f l y said:
[citation needed]... Not that I doubt it. Just furthers my point.

Chris · Nov 26, 2018

a c i d.f l y said:
All the folks saying "it doesn't take that long to develop", I wonder how many of you have actually worked in software development and have any idea how long that curve actually is? Because I do. Small game, small number of assets, small amount of features and art, 1-3 developers/artists, maybe 6 months. That all scales up unless you sacrifice somewhere, or you have a running IP like Overwatch with small blue/green deployments. But that shit doesn't work with large single player games.

Activision gets away with releasing a "new" game every year by literally releasing nearly the same game over and over. Their new features are actually content patches, and rank resets.

Blizzard has had a 3-4 year content cycle for WOW, with intermittent updates to features, be they art, animations, class design. New areas, "new" quests, new raids and dungeons, new stories, new art, new armor, mounts, etc. But remember this game gets $15/mo from millions of accounts.

Diablo 3 hasn't had a real injection of capital, so development on it isn't exactly top priority. Feature releases aren't going to be prioritized as a new product if they're expected to continue supporting D3 across its existing platforms (PC, XB, Switch, etc) and whatever form D4 takes, when it's not brining in a revenue stream, or has a potential revenue stream.

It sucks having a clear line of sight to their corporate objectives, opex, etc, and historical trends from Blizzard to know that a new game isn't going to come out of the company unless backend support is low, and revenue stream is going to be consistent. See: Hearthstone, Overwatch, and now Diablo Immortal. Warcraft 3 reskin is also a cheap cash injection, where they only update the art and models, same engine, slap a $40 on it, maybe offer minor incentives for other Blizz games like a mount or skin, and boom.

Art is about all Blizzard has these days. Game design and storytelling has been severely lacking, or the storyteller folks are being dedicated to the cinematics that feel somehow untethered to the games they're supposed to be from. You can't tell me Overwatch is in any way an original design or concept, or that they've perfected balancing because I'd say you were full of shit (for better or worse).

Blizzard's market is also heavily saturated, with nearly every game being online, they'd likely sacrifice one of their existing IP's to release another in a similar market. D4 would cut off D3's head, and if it isn't released to a resounding success, high consumer feedback, which is going to be a challenge after the tone deaf retardation of the Diablo Immortal announcement. If ever Blizzard was gunshy, that shit certainly didn't help.

So how come games didn't take as long to make in the past?

Are they literally done with the game design for years while the art team catches up? Because they seem to be fucking the game design up and that should be taking the same amount of time, compare D2 and D3 game design, I don't see how D3 would take longer other than art.

The stories out of FF13 were about massive amounts of unused art which was used for the sequel, so the game design must have been slow instead? So how come a decade before they were programming in snowboarding mini games for fun?

a c i d.f l y · Nov 26, 2018

Chris said:
So how come games didn't take as long to make in the past?

Literally the dumbest question that could be asked, especially after I've already answered it.

I'm also not going to defend stupid design or development decisions like snowboarding in an already shit rpg.

Punko · Nov 26, 2018

I vaguely remember Blizzard admitting in an official statement that they were aware about taking too long to make new content / games.

Chris · Nov 26, 2018

a c i d.f l y said:
Literally the dumbest question that could be asked, especially after I've already answered it.

I'm also not going to defend stupid design or development decisions like snowboarding in an already shit rpg.

Well that makes your opinion irrelevant!

I know you explained it but you basically said "because of the art", I'm posting how that doesn't make sense.

These companies just have terrible management.

elidib · Nov 26, 2018

a c i d.f l y said:
Blizzard's market is also heavily saturated, with nearly every game being online, they'd likely sacrifice one of their existing IP's to release another in a similar market. D4 would cut off D3's head, and if it isn't released to a resounding success, high consumer feedback, which is going to be a challenge after the tone deaf retardation of the Diablo Immortal announcement. If ever Blizzard was gunshy, that shit certainly didn't help.

I mean, you say this, but what does it matter that D4 would cut off D3's head? D3 cut off D2's head, and so the cycle goes. put out a new product - get money for the next product.

Taking 10+ years to develop a new game that's only going to get box sales+one expansion isn't sustainable in the long run. They could definitely re-use the engine from D3 and just work on new art and story. the Assassins Creed series did this very well for a long time. if D4 was a completely overhauled D3 with new locales, classes, story, and items, but was released 2 or 3 years after D3 was, we'd all buy it and have fun with it and fund D5 to come out another 2-3 years down the line.

The problem with Blizzard, and DEFINITELY the problem with Square, is they keep trying to completely reinvent the wheel every time. "Our players loved this! let's scrap it all and do something completely different!"

Anyways, I still agree with Chris, it doesn't take 10+ years to develop a great game, even from scratch:

Witcher 3: 3 & a half years
Horizon: ZD: 6 years
GTA V: 3 years
God of War: 5 years
The Last of Us: 3 years
Fallout 4: 4 years fulltime, 3 more part time
World of Warcraft - 5 years, and that game is way more massive than a diablo game would be.
Zelda: BOTW: 5 years
Monster Hunter: World - 4 years

Diablo 4: started development in 2014, and is estimated for a late 2020-2021 release.
Final Fantasy XV: 10 years, and still not complete 2 years later
FF7 Remake: bwaaaaahahahahahahahah episode 1 to come out god only knows when, god only knows how many "episodes" until it's finished - IF EVER.

Punko · Nov 26, 2018

The problem is any small-medium size studio with good practices and people gets bought out, and there aren't any big companies that guarantee quality left.

If a small company can make the witcher 3 in a good 3 years, a company like Activision-Netease should take no more then 2 years. Anything over that indicates massive waste of time.

7 years for an isometric ARPG is not only laughable, due to the long dev cycle they have to play catch up with technology and the market, which only lengthens the process.

Gaming industry just has terrible management, it should be clear by now. Pretty sure Blizzard spent hundreds of hours on the diablo blizzcon presentation, I doubt I can imagine the bloat of their teams. A dozen managers and 8 hierarchical levels, with 7 guys actually working on the game.

Chris · Nov 26, 2018

Punko said:
7 years for an isometric ARPG is not only laughable, due to the long dev cycle they have to play catch up with technology and the market, which only lengthens the process.

This is what I'm talking about. Diablo 2 took 2-3 years to make.

Now what exactly about Diablo 3 would take additional time? It's the same design in every way. Are we really saying that the animations and models would take so much longer given the tools and graphics cards of today? And repeating myself again, if the art team really is taking so much longer, what the fuck are the game design team doing with the extra time? Designing warcraft themed motorbikes?

Nola · Nov 26, 2018

Punko said:
Gaming industry just has terrible management, it should be clear by now. Pretty sure Blizzard spent hundreds of hours on the diablo blizzcon presentation, I doubt I can imagine the bloat of their teams. A dozen managers and 8 hierarchical levels, with 7 guys actually working on the game.

Remlnds me of the Department of transportation. Always see a dozen people outside standing around and only 3 people who are actually working. No wonder it takes years for the roads to get repaired.

Punko · Nov 26, 2018

3 out of a dozen working is pretty good tbh

actual belgian road workers filling a pothole:

vGrade · Nov 26, 2018

a c i d.f l y said:
[citation wanted]... Not that I doubt it. Just furthers my point.

FIX'D

Oblio · Nov 26, 2018

Grim1 said:
Well in their defense, I recently read what Titan was about and it sounded like all kinds of suck.

But that doesn't excuse the lack of expansion packs for D3, etc.

What was Titan all about? Link source please. I don't recall if I read about it and was so underwhelmed that I forgot. Or just never followed up. Either way my interest is peaked, so please link an article.

Braen · Nov 26, 2018

I believe Titan became Overwatch

Overwatch: How Blizzard turned its biggest failure into its next great hope

Nija · Nov 26, 2018

Punko said:
The problem is any small-medium size studio with good practices and people gets bought out, and there aren't any big companies that guarantee quality left.

If a small company can make the witcher 3 in a good 3 years, a company like Activision-Netease should take no more then 2 years. Anything over that indicates massive waste of time.

I haven't made any video games, but I have done software and system administration professionally for 20 years. I've been through two small company acquisitions. Going from a small agile company to a large company does not decrease development time. Everything takes longer. The worst example I can think of was when they wanted our production site in their data center. It took them 6 months to provision two systems in a data center in 2008. That would have taken me 3 days, provided that I ordered the systems on Monday or Tuesday.

With software, and probably video games, having more developers and more designers doesn't necessarily speed up the process. For things like Assassins Creed it definitely does - you can also see the results. That's why the mission quality differs so drastically. They had teams all over the world working on missions. There were definitely some 'C' teams in the mix, along with the 'A' and 'B' teams.

You can't have a D4 game with D2 quality by tripling the headcount. You'll have yet another shitty modern game that further destroys good childhood memories. Nobody wants more of that - there's enough around at the moment.

James · Nov 26, 2018

Nija said:
With software, and probably video games, having more developers and more designers doesn't necessarily speed up the process.

What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months!

Burns · Nov 26, 2018

Nija said:
You can't have a D4 game with D2 quality by tripling the headcount. You'll have yet another shitty modern game that further destroys good childhood memories. Nobody wants more of that - there's enough around at the moment.

You say that, but Fallout 3 and 4 sold very well...

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Nov 26, 2018

James said:
What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months!

IF (buildersbuiltbuildings == programmerswriteprograms) THEN firstwoodpeckerthatcomesalong.destroy(civilization);

Muligan · Nov 27, 2018

On a brighter note, a friend of mine convinced to play some D3 last night for the first time in I don't know how long but I forgot how therapeutic (and yes, even fun) the game can be.

I had my share of disappointment with D3 being a big D1 and D2 fan but overall I felt I definitely got my moneys worth out of the game. I really hope the next installment takes us closer to a D2 feel but who knows.

Now if I can just figure out what in the world is going on in D3. There are rifts, grifts, and all kinds of stuff i'm totally lost on but hopefully a little Googl'ing will bring this all together. It's a nice change of pace from my Overwatch grinding and lack of MMO's.

Brikker · Nov 27, 2018

You just grind rifts/grifts for chance at better gear, and bounties for mats to roll for chances at better gear.

Bandwagon · Nov 27, 2018

I honestly don't know why everyone loves D2 and hates D3. They feel the same to me.

Don't tar & feather me....can I just get an honest tl:dr about what D2 did so well that D3 fucked up? I'm aware of the launch issue with skills and not being able to assign whatever you want, but that's about it.

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Diablo 3 - Reaper of Souls

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