Django Unchained

Szlia · Dec 28, 2012

etchazz_sl said:
you're either trolling, you've never seen a QT movie, or you're a fucking moron. it's one of those 3.

Damn... I have seen all Tarentino movies (except Django who is not out yet around here) so you leave me with an unpleasant alternative! I'll go with another option though: I presented my point with unnecessary venom because I let myself be trolled (after all the claims I was rebuking were that Lee is not a filmmaker and that all he made after Do The Right Thing was "complete and utter shit").

I don't question Tarentino's love of movies, his love of watching them and making them. His enthusiasm is there for all to see. The problem though is that love, passion even, and good intentions do not automatically make good movies. Just like him, I saw and enjoyed many kung-fu movies with Gordon Liu, I saw Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter, I loved the serie of Female Convict Scorpion with Meiko Kaji and still (or maybe because of that) I find Kill Bill a lot less satisfying than the movies it pays homage to. In a way, Tarentino's greatest strength, this juvenile energy that allows him to make a refreshingly iconoclast WWII movie, is also his greatest limitation. Ultimately, he is making in reality the movies he made in his dreams during his youth, fusing together the many movies he saw during the day: He is using his phenomenal movie culture to make teenage fantasies. It has its regressive charm (and it would be hypocrite of me to say that I don't enjoy seeing Rosario Dawson prance around and Mary Elizabeth Winstead in a pom pom girl outfit), but I am not a teenager anymore, so I ask a little more of movies to call them great (like the 25th Hour).

To say it differently, the object of Tarentino's films is not reality, it's other films. Being twice removed from reality, they cannot address the world we live in, and being products of pure adoration, his movies don't even try to comment, analyze or creatively betray the fictions that inspires them. Enjoyable, well crafted but ultimately empty and sterile labors of love.

On a side note, to this day I think my favorite Tarentino movie is still Pulp Fiction and it might owe it more to Avary's sense of choral structure than to Tarentino's flair for dialogues.

Alex · Dec 28, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
Damn... I have seen all Tarentino movies (except Django who is not out yet around here) so you leave me with an unpleasant alternative! I'll go with another option though: I presented my point with unnecessary venom because I let myself be trolled (after all the claims I was rebuking were that Lee is not a filmmaker and that all he made after Do The Right Thing was "complete and utter shit").

I don't question Tarentino's love of movies, his love of watching them and making them. His enthusiasm is there for all to see. The problem though is that love, passion even, and good intentions do not automatically make good movies. Just like him, I saw and enjoyed many kung-fu movies with Gordon Liu, I saw Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter, I loved the serie of Female Convict Scorpion with Meiko Kaji and still (or maybe because of that) I find Kill Bill a lot less satisfying than the movies it pays homage to. In a way, Tarentino's greatest strength, this juvenile energy that allows him to make a refreshingly iconoclast WWII movie, is also his greatest limitation. Ultimately, he is making in reality the movies he made in his dreams during his youth, fusing together the many movies he saw during the day: He is using his phenomenal movie culture to make teenage fantasies. It has its regressive charm (and it would be hypocrite of me to say that I don't enjoy seeing Rosario Dawson prance around and Mary Elizabeth Winstead in a pom pom girl outfit), but I am not a teenager anymore, so I ask a little more of movies to call them great (like the 25th Hour).

To say it differently, the object of Tarentino's films is not reality, it's other films. Being twice removed from reality, they cannot address the world we live in, and being products of pure adoration, his movies don't even try to comment, analyze or creatively betray the fictions that inspires them. Enjoyable, well crafted but ultimately empty and sterile labors of love.

On a side note, to this day I think my favorite Tarentino movie is still Pulp Fiction and it might owe it more to Avary's sense of choral structure than to Tarentino's flair for dialogues.

This post reeks of "too good for you" movie snob. I think it's hard to get much better than Inglourious Basterds or Reservoir Dogs. Jackie Brown and Death Proof are the only Tarantino films I wouldn't consider great. Death Proof actually sucks, but Jackie Brown is still pretty good.

Khane · Dec 28, 2012

I love most of QT's films but Szlia has a point. The guy doesn't write movies, he just pays homage to movies he loves in film form. They are wildly entertaining and he has a knack for comedic over embellishment but you will never find his movies to be thought provoking or beautiful. They are just good old fashioned fun.

Amzin · Dec 28, 2012

Khane_sl said:
I love most of QT's films but Szlia has a point. The guy doesn't write movies, he just pays homage to movies he loves in film form. They are wildly entertaining and he has a knack for comedic over embellishment but you will never find his movies to be thought provoking or beautiful. They are just good old fashioned fun.

Which is why I watch movies really. For thought-provoking, I go read about various subjects. While I don't dislike a movie that does provoke thoughts, it's not a reason to go see them to me.

What was the comment about video store clerk montages? That makes me think Clerks, which is Kevin Smith, not Tarantino.

Cheap Cigar_sl · Dec 28, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
To say it differently, the object of Tarentino's films is not reality, it's other films. Being twice removed from reality, they cannot address the world we live in, and being products of pure adoration, his movies don't even try to comment, analyze or creatively betray the fictions that inspires them. Enjoyable, well crafted but ultimately empty and sterile labors of love.

The thing is that I am bombarded with reality and I certainly do not want to spend money nor time on viewing somebody else giving me their opinions or views. If I need to see that on film I will watch a documentary but on a free night away from the daily bullshit that is life I want to be entertained. From the lifetime gross totals it looks as though most people feel this way.

Tarantino
Lifetime Gross Total (8): $465,640,062
Average: $58,205,008
Opening Gross Average (7): $16,492,813 (Wide Releases Only)

Lee
Lifetime Gross Total (19): $374,979,342
Average: $19,735,755
Opening Gross Average (11): $7,779,007 (Wide Releases Only)

These numbers are with Lee's multiple contributions and Tarantino's fewer. It looks as though movie goers feel as though I do.

Cybsled · Dec 28, 2012

Tarantino films tend to appeal to a wider demographic (most importantly, the demographic that spends money) vs. Lee, where with the exception of a few films, tend to appeal to more specific demographics. The other thing to consider is that a large bulk of Spike Lee's biggest hits were in the 80s and 90s, whereas Tarantino has been primarily 90s and onward, so you would also need to account for inflation.

That being said, I watch movies for multiple reasons, be it to be entertained or to provoke thought or to just appreciate the skill that went into making a film.

Commander Vimeseh_sl · Dec 28, 2012

Cheap Cigar_sl said:
The thing is that I am bombarded with reality and I certainly do not want to spend money nor time on viewing somebody else giving me their opinions or views. If I need to see that on film I will watch a documentary but on a free night away from the daily bullshit that is life I want to be entertained. From the lifetime gross totals it looks as though most people feel this way.

Tarantino
Lifetime Gross Total (8): $465,640,062
Average: $58,205,008
Opening Gross Average (7): $16,492,813 (Wide Releases Only)

Lee
Lifetime Gross Total (19): $374,979,342
Average: $19,735,755
Opening Gross Average (11): $7,779,007 (Wide Releases Only)

These numbers are with Lee's multiple contributions and Tarantino's fewer. It looks as though movie goers feel as though I do.

Popularity comparison is never a good argument to make.

Szlia isn't saying that QT movies don't entertain or aren't worthy of big box office numbers but that he thinks they aren't "great" movies. In a structural or artistic sense. Which they aren't. Most movies don't need to be, they just need to fill the entertainment bill and films like Django or Pulp Fiction do that quite nicely.

Juvarisx · Dec 28, 2012

They are well written and acted movies however regardless if they do not have some deep meaning.

Commander Vimeseh_sl · Dec 28, 2012

Juvarisx_sl said:
They are well written and acted movies however regardless if they do not have some deep meaning.

No objections there. Anyone who has spent any amount of time in the movie house forums on FoH or here knows that Szlia rates movies based on the complete package and from a pretty traditional standpoint. Was simply clarifying for the people who seem to have no clue under what circumstances he makes his judgements based on. Not that QT movies are bad in general in my opinion, I mean they are the ultimate popcorn flicks with great dialogue and copious amounts of violence for the most part.

Brahma · Dec 28, 2012

The ONLY thing I could possible see Spike Lee getting upset about in this movie (and I am stretching this shit) is that after awhile you totally got desensitized to the word "American Inventor". I mean it got comedic after awhile.

I would tell Spike as a black man...American Inventor enjoy the fuckin movie. It was awesome.

I know everyone will chime in how Decaprio was awesome, but Samuel Jackson was just fuckin great. The whole damn casting was great.

9/10

Tuco · Dec 28, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
Damn... I have seen all Tarentino movies (except Django who is not out yet around here) so you leave me with an unpleasant alternative! I'll go with another option though: I presented my point with unnecessary venom because I let myself be trolled (after all the claims I was rebuking were that Lee is not a filmmaker and that all he made after Do The Right Thing was "complete and utter shit").

I don't question Tarentino's love of movies, his love of watching them and making them. His enthusiasm is there for all to see. The problem though is that love, passion even, and good intentions do not automatically make good movies. Just like him, I saw and enjoyed many kung-fu movies with Gordon Liu, I saw Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter, I loved the serie of Female Convict Scorpion with Meiko Kaji and still (or maybe because of that) I find Kill Bill a lot less satisfying than the movies it pays homage to. In a way, Tarentino's greatest strength, this juvenile energy that allows him to make a refreshingly iconoclast WWII movie, is also his greatest limitation. Ultimately, he is making in reality the movies he made in his dreams during his youth, fusing together the many movies he saw during the day: He is using his phenomenal movie culture to make teenage fantasies. It has its regressive charm (and it would be hypocrite of me to say that I don't enjoy seeing Rosario Dawson prance around and Mary Elizabeth Winstead in a pom pom girl outfit), but I am not a teenager anymore, so I ask a little more of movies to call them great (like the 25th Hour).

To say it differently, the object of Tarentino's films is not reality, it's other films. Being twice removed from reality, they cannot address the world we live in, and being products of pure adoration, his movies don't even try to comment, analyze or creatively betray the fictions that inspires them. Enjoyable, well crafted but ultimately empty and sterile labors of love.

On a side note, to this day I think my favorite Tarentino movie is still Pulp Fiction and it might owe it more to Avary's sense of choral structure than to Tarentino's flair for dialogues.

Tarantino's movies draw from other movies but that's one piece of them, and the inclusion of that piece doesn't invalidate the rest of the movie.

Leevonroy · Dec 29, 2012

Another great QT movie. I will admit that it dragged on a little bit at times.

As far and Whine Lee is concerned, we looked at his IMDB listing of films and determined its true. You put enough monkeys at a typewriter for long enough you can get Shakespeare one time. But there has not been enough time for him. I mean maybe 1 palatable movie since 1991.

xzi · Dec 29, 2012

Finally seen it, fucking loved it. Not just as a Tarantino fanboy either, it was a really great movie. I don't know how he managed to pull off some pretty racist shit and still make some of the racist shit just hilarious, but at the expense of the assholes spouting it. I feel like it was racism/comedy done right, if that makes any sense.

Especially in the scene with the early KKK when they raided the cart and they're all yelling about not being able to see anything.

Kaosu · Dec 29, 2012

foddon_sl said:
Yeah, I heard that too when I watched it earlier (even rewound to make sure I actually heard him say it). You'd think someone like him would know better but I guess he has smart script editors and shit to fix things like that.

Saw Django last night and mostly loved it but it did drag out a bit too much. I would've preferred more dialog heavy scenes and less violence heavy scenes. Fucking love Christoph Waltz.

Did not hear that. I heard for all intents and purposes. He does speak with a slight lisp.

Tuco · Dec 29, 2012

I heard all intensive purposes.

Crowing · Dec 29, 2012

I honestly cannot understand people complaining about the overabundance of the word American Inventor in the movie. Do people forget that the time period is pre-Civil War in the south? If I had to venture a guess, I would say in reality people probably called blacks American Inventors more times than they did in the movie.

Cheap Cigar_sl · Dec 29, 2012

Crowing_sl said:
I honestly cannot understand people complaining about the overabundance of the word American Inventor in the movie. Do people forget that the time period is pre-Civil War in the south? If I had to venture a guess, I would say in reality people probably called blacks American Inventors more times than they did in the movie.

These days it's a popular pc thing to do. Instead of learning and growing you just try to erase history, modify literature, etc.

Jait · Dec 29, 2012

Cybsled_sl said:
That being said, I watch movies for multiple reasons, be it to be entertained or to provoke thought or to just appreciate the skill that went into making a film.

Isn't that the truth.

Entertainment and Drama are two very different things. There's a reason why DeNiro, Pacino, and SHATNER are the three actors most parodied. Tarantino is a great filmmaker, he always has me entertained. If I'm looking for drama I'll tend to head in the Branagh, Washington, Day Lewis, Sellers direction. For entertainment, nothing beats DeNiro, Pacino, and Shatner though. But you're never going to see them play a great Hamlet or a parapalygic hooker looking to get clean. Same way Tarantino will always entertain me, but if you're looking for innovative Hitchcock like Direction you're not always going to get it from him.

Most folks have a hard time seperating the two. That's why people think good looking entertainers and one note Italian gangsters are great "actors", they're not.

Kirun · Dec 29, 2012

Szlia_sl said:
Damn... I have seen all Tarentino movies (except Django who is not out yet around here) so you leave me with an unpleasant alternative! I'll go with another option though: I presented my point with unnecessary venom because I let myself be trolled (after all the claims I was rebuking were that Lee is not a filmmaker and that all he made after Do The Right Thing was "complete and utter shit").

I don't question Tarentino's love of movies, his love of watching them and making them. His enthusiasm is there for all to see. The problem though is that love, passion even, and good intentions do not automatically make good movies. Just like him, I saw and enjoyed many kung-fu movies with Gordon Liu, I saw Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter, I loved the serie of Female Convict Scorpion with Meiko Kaji and still (or maybe because of that) I find Kill Bill a lot less satisfying than the movies it pays homage to. In a way, Tarentino's greatest strength, this juvenile energy that allows him to make a refreshingly iconoclast WWII movie, is also his greatest limitation. Ultimately, he is making in reality the movies he made in his dreams during his youth, fusing together the many movies he saw during the day: He is using his phenomenal movie culture to make teenage fantasies. It has its regressive charm (and it would be hypocrite of me to say that I don't enjoy seeing Rosario Dawson prance around and Mary Elizabeth Winstead in a pom pom girl outfit), but I am not a teenager anymore, so I ask a little more of movies to call them great (like the 25th Hour).

To say it differently, the object of Tarentino's films is not reality, it's other films. Being twice removed from reality, they cannot address the world we live in, and being products of pure adoration, his movies don't even try to comment, analyze or creatively betray the fictions that inspires them. Enjoyable, well crafted but ultimately empty and sterile labors of love.

On a side note, to this day I think my favorite Tarentino movie is still Pulp Fiction and it might owe it more to Avary's sense of choral structure than to Tarentino's flair for dialogues.

Your pretentiousness is fucking ridiculous.

Anyhow, good flick. Aside from Dredd, probably the most "entertaining" film I saw all year.

EmiliaEQ_sl · Dec 29, 2012

Khane_sl said:
I love most of QT's films but Szlia has a point. The guy doesn't write movies, he just pays homage to movies he loves in film form. They are wildly entertaining and he has a knack for comedic over embellishment but you will never find his movies to be thought provoking or beautiful. They are just good old fashioned fun.

I remember when The Hobbit was being discussed on the old board i said "Tarantino, even more than Burton, makes the movie HE wants to see" and i think it has been his directing principle since day one.
They're never about homage (Shindler's) Kabooms (Michael Bay) TeenHormoneTax (Twilight) a Message (Inconvenient Truth / Bowling for Columbine) Milking the cow (Saw N?12)...
Or anything else, mostly about "what he'd like to watch in a theater and enjoy".

I agree they are "twice removed from reality" but isn't that by essence the goal of movies ? pure entertainment ?

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