Alternate win conditions and ideas keep the game fresh. A couple years ago dual lane mid was standard. I like how lanes are changing and ideas on how to crack a base change. No need to have it go all League of Legends with the exact same fucking team comp every game.
DOTA 2
- Thread starter Bels_sl
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I actually agree wholeheartedly with the using wins as a gauge being retarded cause all it showcases is experience, not skill level. My point is more about people being fresh off the boat being queued with me over and over in the vhigh bracket. Nothing should permit a guy with 50 wins (even if its 50 wins 0 losses) to queue up there in vhigh with 2k~ games players. That's my main gripe at the moment.
To continue with what Dandain wrote also, that system looks very abusable at the moment. What prevents you from queuing with 2 friends and a smurf on a -20 games played account and automaticaly you will now face someone on the opposing team with ~20 games... I must prefered the older system of averaging team ratings + adding a team queue majoration for finding suitable opponents. Then again this is all speculation since they havent actualy told us exactly how the system does matchmaking unless I missed something. We can only evaluate results.
It does make it dull on both sides. When the other team side pushes you, you constantly have to tp back to get that stupid prophet and it just breaks game momentum so much and makes games last longer than they should. On the other side of it, always alone pve'ing vs creeps, it gets boring as hell and you dont feel involved in the game at all. I hope the trend changes as well.
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How do you change it though, it seems like quite complicated to fix. You have to pick specifically to counter it, can't really counter it once picks are done so last picks brood/furion/AM/whatever to splitpush generally guarantees the strat or at least make it hard to counter. Since you can't go back on picks, I guess an item would be needed to counter. Smoke kinda does, but not well enough, it's obvious for the splitpusher if people smoked and it takes a while to reach him. TPs are obviously not very good either cause also obvious. Both make decent counters against shitty splitpushers or solo not very farmed splitpushers(so you send one guy to fuck the prophet up) but both are also avoidable by a good splitpusher and do very little against 2 splitpushers(furion AM pushing different lanes). On the other hand, trying to force a 5man doesn't give you much of an advantage, you're going high ground but the splitpushers can join the fight within 3secs with TP so you never really get that 5vs4 advantage.
So it'd need to be an item that either let you kill the splitpusher quickly(probably OP for a lot of other situations) or prevent the splitpusher from joining up(potentially balanced if high cost+consumable). For example, Dust of Fuck you Furion, or Dofyf, use it and it prevents TPing in a 2000(3000?) range of where you are. At the very least, it forces the splitpusher to TP to the fountain. Could quickly become the dust of backdoors though. 500g for one use, stock based. Maybe instead of preventing TPs, interupt all current TPs. Wouldn't do much against Furion but would fuck other splitpushers by putting their TP on cooldown but not moving them, forcing them to commit to a rax race and giving you that 5vs4 advantage.
Don't know, the issue is so many heroes can split push well and they're being abused a lot for that. It's a fallback strat when shit isn't going well and you need to buy 10-20mins, it's like Tinker march spam bullshit, it's not very fun to watch but that also comes from the fact even with a solid gold lead, it's hard to break the base.
So it'd need to be an item that either let you kill the splitpusher quickly(probably OP for a lot of other situations) or prevent the splitpusher from joining up(potentially balanced if high cost+consumable). For example, Dust of Fuck you Furion, or Dofyf, use it and it prevents TPing in a 2000(3000?) range of where you are. At the very least, it forces the splitpusher to TP to the fountain. Could quickly become the dust of backdoors though. 500g for one use, stock based. Maybe instead of preventing TPs, interupt all current TPs. Wouldn't do much against Furion but would fuck other splitpushers by putting their TP on cooldown but not moving them, forcing them to commit to a rax race and giving you that 5vs4 advantage.
Don't know, the issue is so many heroes can split push well and they're being abused a lot for that. It's a fallback strat when shit isn't going well and you need to buy 10-20mins, it's like Tinker march spam bullshit, it's not very fun to watch but that also comes from the fact even with a solid gold lead, it's hard to break the base.
Yeah I don't have a problem with split pushing. As long as there have been Furions there have been games won through split pushing.
I don't even understand the complaint. It's frustrating that someone is using a strategy that you dislike? I've lost games to it and won games with it. I've also won games because people think split pushing will win it. There's a risk in doing it, and a risk in responding to it. All games should be decided in 5v5 matchups in a lane later? Split pushing adds a depth to the game that some may dislike, but it's here to stay without "dust of fuck you, split pusher."
I don't even understand the complaint. It's frustrating that someone is using a strategy that you dislike? I've lost games to it and won games with it. I've also won games because people think split pushing will win it. There's a risk in doing it, and a risk in responding to it. All games should be decided in 5v5 matchups in a lane later? Split pushing adds a depth to the game that some may dislike, but it's here to stay without "dust of fuck you, split pusher."
I don't believe we said it's frustrating. For my part, I said it was dull and boring, not very entertaining. I can state none of my favorite games lately have involved sidepushing. Yes it works, no I dont really propose doing something to counter it since its not overpowered or even a form of abuse in my opinion. It just makes that game a lot less entertaining. I do play to have fun foremost
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Okay, I've got a question from a new player bracket perspective. (As stated a couple pages back I'm completely new to the game and genre, and I'm 10 and 4 right now.)
Regarding "jungling," is there a point to this most of the time, or should it be reserved for very specific matchups at higher skill levels?
For instance, yesterday I played Lifestealer for the first time, and I followed this guide:
http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide...ngle-guide-240
I farmed without being attacked for like 18 minutes, built up the core items, then went out to help my team...but they were pretty good and we were like 7 minutes from winning already. So basically I didn't even contribute to the game, they won it without me more or less (I did get a few kills at the end.) Should I ever bother with jungling in these newbie games, or should I just stay in lanes?
I found Lifestealer's ability to hide inside of someone rather amusing, but I never got a chance to use it. Fun hero I thought, I seemed to destroy a couple of people quite fast. At one point I killed two heroes + was under attack by creeps at the same time.
Regarding "jungling," is there a point to this most of the time, or should it be reserved for very specific matchups at higher skill levels?
For instance, yesterday I played Lifestealer for the first time, and I followed this guide:
http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide...ngle-guide-240
I farmed without being attacked for like 18 minutes, built up the core items, then went out to help my team...but they were pretty good and we were like 7 minutes from winning already. So basically I didn't even contribute to the game, they won it without me more or less (I did get a few kills at the end.) Should I ever bother with jungling in these newbie games, or should I just stay in lanes?
I found Lifestealer's ability to hide inside of someone rather amusing, but I never got a chance to use it. Fun hero I thought, I seemed to destroy a couple of people quite fast. At one point I killed two heroes + was under attack by creeps at the same time.
Penance
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Jungling is very situational. Lifestealer isn't a great jungler starting off. I usually don't jungle with him until around level 4/5. I would say a good time to jungle would be if you have a strong dual lane to go long lane, and a strong ganker that can solo safe lane. That way you can keep safelane camped. If you are feeling balsy you can jungle in the enemy jungle, but this is really reserved for super aggressive junglers like Chen/Enigma.
My suggestion to jungling is don't. It almost never works out in lower brackets.
My suggestion to jungling is don't. It almost never works out in lower brackets.
You CAN jungle Lifestealer, but I wouldnt recommend it. He is a pretty slow jungler and it is sort of a waste since he is pretty strong in the lane. Heroes like chen, natures prophet, enigma and enchantress are much better junglers because 1) they are much faster 2) they can effectively gank the mid and safe lanes. It's important to still contribute to the game when you jungle. No one likes to have an afk farmer in the jungle while the rest of your team gets manhandled 4v5.
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Yeah, I felt like I wasn't doing anything, so I figured something was out of whack with what I was doing. So I'll probably not do that anymore for a while.
Sometimes your teammates are just able to win games on their own, and you'll feel like you were just baggage on their carry train. It doesn't really matter if you're in the jungle or not, it happens occasionally. Now, if you jungle its rarer, because the typical setup of 2-1-2 vs 2-1-2 changes to 1-1-1-2 vs 2-1-2, so one of your lanes will be lost before the game starts and your team will, most of the time, need to rely on you to pick up the slack with the extra gold/exp that you got in the jungle.
The main thing a jungle strategy needs is a hero/player that can survive a 2v1 lane without a high likelihood of feeding. Dark Seer, Windrunner, Weaver, Bounty Hunter, Clockwerk, Mirana, Slark, and a few others are all good heroes for that. They have abilities that let them stay in exp range and even get some farm while avoiding attacks that would spell certain death for less suitable heroes. If it works out, then you have solo exp on three heroes compared to one on the other team, and a good shot at more overall farm. You also have what is effectively trilane on your safe lane, since you can always stop farming for a couple minutes and wrap around behind the 2v2 and turn it into a 2v3. Since you're in the jungle, no one will be able to call missing, and the only thing that can tip the enemy off to a gank is a well placed ward, which might not be there in the lower brackets (or even higher brackets since there are only 2 wards available for the first six minutes).
A lot of people mislike jungle Lifestealer, but he can be pretty effective in a lot of situations. With feast, he is able to stay at high hitpoints, reducing the possibility of getting ganked in the jungle. He can also get through creeps reasonably fast. Both of these together give you a very high probability of a good start. He is strong in lane, but not nearly as strong as he was before the range on open wounds was nerfed, and in the lane there is always the possibility of getting less farm than the jungle if you end up in a harder lane matchup or aren't up to snuff on your last hitting. Going into the jungle also lets another carry take the safe lane supported by a good ganker threatening from the jungle. That almost guarantees your team at least two dangerous heroes going into the mid game. If the safelane hero is one that synergizes well with infest, like Spirit Breaker, that can be an absolute terror.
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Naix jungle kinda works in pubs but that's because pubs are usually very passive about ganking the jungle. Naix jungle is mostly about farming while giving someone a solo lane, but he's stronger in lane anyway. You rarely can gank on Naix cause you use most of your mana using Rage and stuff like that.
Overall at low tier I wouldn't really recommend jungling. If someone asks for a solo lane then go ahead but otherwise you're generally just going to lose your offlane horribly cause the guy has no clue what to do. Best junglers would be Furion, Enigma, Chen/Enchantress(both of these have to be played very agressively with the objective of taking early towers, not farming), Dark Seer, Doombringer(if you're not getting ganked/warded), Batrider and Axe. There's a bunch more heroes that can jungle(Naix, Lycan, Syllabear, Stormspirit, Shadow Demon...) and some heroes that can farm ancients at lvl 1 like Tinker, Beastmaster, Alchemist or anyone who cut trees and get visions with a ward, but overall these are fairly innefficient. Funny that Lycan is an innefficient jungler nowadays when he used to be king of the jungle.
Overall at low tier I wouldn't really recommend jungling. If someone asks for a solo lane then go ahead but otherwise you're generally just going to lose your offlane horribly cause the guy has no clue what to do. Best junglers would be Furion, Enigma, Chen/Enchantress(both of these have to be played very agressively with the objective of taking early towers, not farming), Dark Seer, Doombringer(if you're not getting ganked/warded), Batrider and Axe. There's a bunch more heroes that can jungle(Naix, Lycan, Syllabear, Stormspirit, Shadow Demon...) and some heroes that can farm ancients at lvl 1 like Tinker, Beastmaster, Alchemist or anyone who cut trees and get visions with a ward, but overall these are fairly innefficient. Funny that Lycan is an innefficient jungler nowadays when he used to be king of the jungle.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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Just to add a simple point to the notion of having a jungler and a long laner. If you ever get put in the solo lane, just buy a set of wards rush up there and ward the camp, I guarantee in lower brackets you will absolutely not get dewarded 98% of the time. If you do that the creeps will be on your tower, and you will get the levels and a few last hits. If you are ever solo top with a jungler, rule one is be patient. Your singular goal is not dying, followed by getting as much xp as possible, followed by getting whatever last hits you can sneak in. You should be attempting to survive, level as fast as possible, and wait for your team to come gank with you. A solo laner who is not denied xp via pulling will reach level 6 faster than the duo or triple lane he is against. At that moment when you hit 6, your mid is 6, and perhaps your jungle or the support from the duo lane rotates, you'll have a couple of ultimates up on the enemy, if they include a weak carry that's where you get back in the game. You cannot be impatient or force the issue you have to take it very carefully.
I dislike splitpush only because you have to stretch a 30 minute game into a 50 minute game to win, even if you've turned the advantage to your team since you basically must get so much farm that you can walkover them and end the game in one push.
Edit Spelling/Clarity of one sentence.
I dislike splitpush only because you have to stretch a 30 minute game into a 50 minute game to win, even if you've turned the advantage to your team since you basically must get so much farm that you can walkover them and end the game in one push.
Edit Spelling/Clarity of one sentence.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Splitpush, while "boring", is a sound strategy. It forces the other team to deal with it, which means full 5 man pushes can become a risk for the team getting the split push.
It's also an ancient battle tactic: you force the enemy to commit to one battle, or split forces to deal with multiple threats. Either way, you are dictating the terms of the battle, not them.
It's also an ancient battle tactic: you force the enemy to commit to one battle, or split forces to deal with multiple threats. Either way, you are dictating the terms of the battle, not them.
Gankak
Vyemm Raider
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