DOTA 2
- Thread starter Bels_sl
- Start date
Everything you described about awareness can also be applied to Dota. Don't just look at the minimap when you see an enemy hero on it, go to the location and check his items to see how well/poorly he is farming. One tip that a lot of people don't seem to use is hotkeying the scoreboard to quickly check on everyone's levels (it's very important vs heroes like Lion, Puck, etc.).
It shouldn't be hard to gauge when your opponent is strong if you're familiar with all the heroes in the game and can see their item/level progression. Taking a risk, there really shouldn't be too many risks taken since it's such a team heavy game (split pushing isn't really risky if you're doing it right). Switching up your build should be based on what the enemy has and what items they are getting. If their carry has gone butterfly (or you see he has the buildup started), you should instantly go for an MKB or Scythe depending on hero.
But yeah, watching lots of high level pro games is very useful.
Cyni
Lord Nagafen Raider
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What bracket are you in Intropy? I remember you kicking my ass in SC2 so i'm sure your skills can translate. There is a big difference in a player with 1000 games, 50% win, but they're in normal bracket, vs a player with the same wins/win rate, but they're in vhigh. # of wins means nothing really, i've seen players with 800+ wins that were absolutely horrible (and i've been shat on by players with 20 wins), it just shows amount of time they've played the game.
Would be nice to have more active members in the channel too... there are like 30 people in the RR channel sometimes, and yet I only ever see the same three or four ever actually playing games.
Would be nice to have more active members in the channel too... there are like 30 people in the RR channel sometimes, and yet I only ever see the same three or four ever actually playing games.
intropy add me, im in normal but always looking for people to group with.
and ill just harp on what cyni said, need maor peoples to be active in the channel, out of 35 theres like 4-5 that play games.
and ill just harp on what cyni said, need maor peoples to be active in the channel, out of 35 theres like 4-5 that play games.
I've also had issues translating my SC experience over to DOTA2. For reasons you described even if I make all these great decisions on my team I'm only one person. I can see a fight isn't at a good location and back my team but that doesn't mean they won't initiate anyways. I can see a great opportunity to engage and go in but that doesn't mean I won't get slapped down 5v1. It is very frustrating. Which is why I still prefer to play SC2 online compared to DOTA even though I find DOTA much more relaxing to play. I never feel fully incontrol of my destiny.
A few things of note, which after 1000 games I'm sure you know (I only have like 120), is that in DOTA information is generally obtained via the actual game screen. This is pretty different than SC where you have you eyes trained to dart around between the minimap and upper-right corner to gain the most valuable information. Probably because the only time you use the main game screen in SC is for when you need to micro a battle and in DOTA that is happening constantly. Outside of general hero position and lane push there isn't a ton of information to be gotten from the minimap.
In SC you learn a valuable lesson of when you should take a fight and when you should back up. That is why I generally prefer to play the role where I initiate team fights. I have a pretty good sense based upon where I know their team is on the map and the positioning of our heroes versus theirs. When I play the initiate role in the game I feel like I gain a bit more control over what my team is doing. They know if I'm a blink Tide (or any of the other standard heroes tasked to start team fights) that I'm going to ping out that I'm blinking in and they better follow me. Same deal with Clinkz but that is more gank initiates.
Personally I feel the two games, while similar, take two very different skill sets. In SC the hidden resource is APM but in DOTA the hidden resource seems to be team management and organization. I also find it harder to improve in DOTA because when you look at a SC replay you can be like "Oh right here I was floating 1200 minerals while my main was drying up and I could have expanded." But the reason for losing seems more nebulous in this game and like I said even if I feel I had a very good game that doesn't mean my 4 counterparts enjoyed the same.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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There is a great deal of information that comes only from the minimap, more than you are implying. Improving is not as nebulous as you think.
A few things, that go a long way.
Obviously you cannot win every game of SC or Dota, and in both games you can lose when you play well. A single mistake can throw away large leads and swing the outcome of either game. Yes you may not be directly responsible for your teammate making a bonehead mistake, but you can be aware of what kind of bonehead thing is about to happen to him. Sometimes you have to back up the stupid in dota, because the consequence of not backing up the stupid is outright losing. Think of it like a SC2 battle that you really can't retreat from after a certain point. You're looking for as favorable a trade as you can squeak out and you're planning and plotting how you're going to handle this period of disadvantage into the best plan that might still win the game.
So quick and dirty on vision. The most important part of the dota minimap is what it tells you but does not show you directly and really the theory behind where to ward or how to ward go hand in hand. If you understand how to ward the map - you will understand how to draw strong solid conclusions about what's happening in the fog. You will know that you are really beginning to grasp the concept behind where to place wards, and subsequently from the ward placement you dictate the pace of your play from that point forward. So this is my attempt at explaining the following in 3 pictures, So I'll just add these to the post then comment on them.
So these would be game starting defensive wards for the Radiant. The blue lines represent all possible paths into the jungle, between the middle tower, and the two wards it is impossible to enter the jungle without being see unless you are invisible, or smoked. If the lane is at the bottom tower, given the early warning the safe lane farmer should be able to hide behind the tower or TP out - one should never die to heroes that must show up in lane by walking there.
This is a scenario where radiant takes down middle and bottom tower - the new ward placements give even more information than before but provide all the same protection, You can now see someone entering the ancient camps from at least the T2 direction. and you can infer their map position based on their role (can they farm ancients) and where they didn't appear (if they don't end up being spotted by the river ward then they are standing around up there or went to the mid t2)
This scenario has the radiant lose its T1's and it attempts to show that proper ward placement that is flexible can remove more possible avenues into the radiant jungle than just placing them where you always have.
So the conclusion that you should make from these pictures is that I'm terrible at paint, but more important this analysis of how to ward and where to ward gives you a much stronger sense of map positioning, when its safe to farm in their safelane past the river, when its safe to farm past the river in your own safe lane. When its time to ward offensively in the jungle and if you do ward offensively, your team needs to commit to owning the territory that those wards show vision of. Its knowing when defensive wards are required to keep your team in the game or when offensive wards are needed to choke the enemy out of the game. And those pictures only involve one thing - protecting the radiant jungle.
A few things, that go a long way.
Obviously you cannot win every game of SC or Dota, and in both games you can lose when you play well. A single mistake can throw away large leads and swing the outcome of either game. Yes you may not be directly responsible for your teammate making a bonehead mistake, but you can be aware of what kind of bonehead thing is about to happen to him. Sometimes you have to back up the stupid in dota, because the consequence of not backing up the stupid is outright losing. Think of it like a SC2 battle that you really can't retreat from after a certain point. You're looking for as favorable a trade as you can squeak out and you're planning and plotting how you're going to handle this period of disadvantage into the best plan that might still win the game.
So quick and dirty on vision. The most important part of the dota minimap is what it tells you but does not show you directly and really the theory behind where to ward or how to ward go hand in hand. If you understand how to ward the map - you will understand how to draw strong solid conclusions about what's happening in the fog. You will know that you are really beginning to grasp the concept behind where to place wards, and subsequently from the ward placement you dictate the pace of your play from that point forward. So this is my attempt at explaining the following in 3 pictures, So I'll just add these to the post then comment on them.
So these would be game starting defensive wards for the Radiant. The blue lines represent all possible paths into the jungle, between the middle tower, and the two wards it is impossible to enter the jungle without being see unless you are invisible, or smoked. If the lane is at the bottom tower, given the early warning the safe lane farmer should be able to hide behind the tower or TP out - one should never die to heroes that must show up in lane by walking there.
This is a scenario where radiant takes down middle and bottom tower - the new ward placements give even more information than before but provide all the same protection, You can now see someone entering the ancient camps from at least the T2 direction. and you can infer their map position based on their role (can they farm ancients) and where they didn't appear (if they don't end up being spotted by the river ward then they are standing around up there or went to the mid t2)
This scenario has the radiant lose its T1's and it attempts to show that proper ward placement that is flexible can remove more possible avenues into the radiant jungle than just placing them where you always have.
So the conclusion that you should make from these pictures is that I'm terrible at paint, but more important this analysis of how to ward and where to ward gives you a much stronger sense of map positioning, when its safe to farm in their safelane past the river, when its safe to farm past the river in your own safe lane. When its time to ward offensively in the jungle and if you do ward offensively, your team needs to commit to owning the territory that those wards show vision of. Its knowing when defensive wards are required to keep your team in the game or when offensive wards are needed to choke the enemy out of the game. And those pictures only involve one thing - protecting the radiant jungle.
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
- 5,862
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Little things you could be doing to improve:
Shit-queuing commands, like where to move after you finish channeling TP
Assigning hotkey groups to your hero/courrier every game so you don't have to look at them
Bottle tricks
Power Threads switching depending on situation
Checking other heroes items every time they show up on map
Playing more micro intensive heroes overall - Visage, Ench, Chen, Rubbick to name a few supports.
Volvo fucked up the lasthit tutorial, now the other hero actively denies and casts spells
Shit-queuing commands, like where to move after you finish channeling TP
Assigning hotkey groups to your hero/courrier every game so you don't have to look at them
Bottle tricks
Power Threads switching depending on situation
Checking other heroes items every time they show up on map
Playing more micro intensive heroes overall - Visage, Ench, Chen, Rubbick to name a few supports.
Volvo fucked up the lasthit tutorial, now the other hero actively denies and casts spells
Sutekh
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 7,489
- 107
haha shit-queuing.Little things you could be doing to improve:
Shit-queuing commands, like where to move after you finish channeling TP
Assigning hotkey groups to your hero/courrier every game so you don't have to look at them
Bottle tricks
Power Threads switching depending on situation
Checking other heroes items every time they show up on map
Playing more micro intensive heroes overall - Visage, Ench, Chen, Rubbick to name a few supports.
Volvo fucked up the lasthit tutorial, now the other hero actively denies and casts spells
I think your hero/chicken get hotkeyed automatically. At least it has always been f1 = hero; f2 = chicken for me. I think many of the things Zap listed are good habits but I don't think they're what separates the vhigh from normal brackets. That is more fundamental flaws in overall gameplay.
Louis
Trakanon Raider
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I love how he repeats over the video about how easy what he's doing is. I could never micro units like that much less with the current select box.
Julian The Apostate
Vyemm Raider
- 2,439
- 2,527
I just started playing a couple days ago. The game is discouraging at the beginning when you don't know what the fuck any items, heros, or abilities are.
After fucking around clueless for a couple days I decided it might be best to learn a single hero. I thought a jungler would be a good place to start because when I focus on getting last hits in lanes I get tunnel vision and can't focus on anything else going on around me.
I arbitrarily picked a lycanthrope and started practicing with him and reading guides and am starting to have a decent idea of how to play him.
My plan is to focus on one hero at a time. After lycan I'll pick a hero from a different role and learn to play him well until I know how to play a hero well in every role.
Does this seem like a good way to start learning the game?
Edit: also any recommendations for heros from other roles to start with would be appreciated.
After fucking around clueless for a couple days I decided it might be best to learn a single hero. I thought a jungler would be a good place to start because when I focus on getting last hits in lanes I get tunnel vision and can't focus on anything else going on around me.
I arbitrarily picked a lycanthrope and started practicing with him and reading guides and am starting to have a decent idea of how to play him.
My plan is to focus on one hero at a time. After lycan I'll pick a hero from a different role and learn to play him well until I know how to play a hero well in every role.
Does this seem like a good way to start learning the game?
Edit: also any recommendations for heros from other roles to start with would be appreciated.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Lycan isn't a very good jungler...at least not until he gets some levels. You may want to start with a support-ish character or support/carry hybrid. They tend to be slightly less item dependent and rely more heavily on their abilities to either set up kills, buff the carries, or even get kills (like Lion's ultimate).
Most people agree the best way to learn the game is to play every hero at least once. Generally just going in order from A-Z.