DOTA 2

bayr_sl said:

Why do navi fans constantly make up shit like this? Who said anything about theme being poor in the past or not good right now? 4th best at Ti3 is not an insult, you people really are delusional.

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I was moreso referring to them getting into finals 3 years in a row, but alright.

I personally wanted Liquid to win but they got kicked out early so navi was my next favorite. I think Alliance played very well and I will forever give Navi shit for letting them split push and losing 4 rax, but hey, no matter what I think or say, everyone at the International is a far better DOTA player than I am.

Looks like there is some internal problems within NaVi, at least between Xboct and Kuroky. If one of them do leave, I'd have to think it was Xboct, but he has strong ties with the organization so I'm not sure if it be possible.

http://instagram.com/p/c4zbKwo8h6/#

And from reddit - XBOCT just made a post on vk.com (facebook-like social network)http://vk.com/wall3495719_10405

Rough translation is:

"Too bad that often your destiny depends on bunch of useless idiots... Thanks for your support, but na'vi doubtly will continue with this roster;("

Though Xboct is a troll so who knows.

What a crazy game, I can't believe they killed both barracks in the split push.

Anyway if they do nerf NP it should be to his trees, like how Lycan got his wolf nerfed hard. Make it harder for NP to farm/backdoor with weaker trees.

I had no idea this was the joindota forums haha...Thought most of the posters here were above fan boy arguments.

Alliance deserved the win, no doubt. They play disciplined, strategic DotA, and very seldom are careless enough to put themselves in situations where there is no path towards victory. They are seemingly able to handle setbacks with ease and seize onto advantages with the kind of strength that often wins them the game automatically. They are the model of a professional team. If you want to change the way they play, you will need to change the balance of the game.

Na'vi is the most talented team in the world. Individually, their play is through the roof and most of the time they are able to crush their opponents simply because of that. But they work horribly as a team. They are undisciplined, greedy, and more often than not don't seem to have any kind of coherent strategy beyond hoping that the opportunity presents itself to blow the game open.

All throughout their last four series you can see this kind of shit. They would constantly have almost zero ward coverage, while their opponent has all three wards up along with 3 or 4 sentries to guard against smoke ganks and invis heroes. Roshan would be up and Puppey would be solo farming completely in the dark, just begging to get ganked. They would take a fight at Roshan and then greedily refuse to back off when wounded, feeding not only Rosh, but 3 or 4 kills to their opponent's buy backs. I can't count the number of times I saw them walk around without TPs, take stupid tower trades, or trickle into a fight one at a time to die like they're playing a normal tier pub game. Strategically, they would take aggressive push strats and then play passively, let KotL through, and give a midas greed alch complete free farm. I mean, what do you think is going to happen when you do that?

I wanted Na'vi to win because they always bring exciting games, but honestly, the fact that they were able to get to game five of the grand finals despite all of their fundamental flaws in working as a team is astounding. It really speaks to the level of raw talent they have. If they would actually discipline themselves and learn how to play as a cohesive unit wit clear strategies, they could easily end up back in their post-TI1 era of invincibility.

As for the split push complaints, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Given the way the patches have been going for a few years now, I highly doubt Icefrog is happy about the way TI3 turned out. The Chinese were still playing 4-protect-1 farm fests, and Alliance won heavily on the back of disengage-and-splitpush. It's hard to say what will be tweaked, but whatever it is will encourage more engagements and make it more difficult to just sit back and slowly wear your opponent down.

Totally agreed Navi played sloppy, especially their constant no wards. Really irritated me while watching. Alliance is definitely the most consistent team, before and during the tournament. Alliance and Navi both deserved to win but there can only be one!

Also agree about Icefrog, changes coming to split push and the CN gameplay style.

I like the change ideas that were posted on the last page, Wisp tether not stunning after TP would sure make things interesting. Naga net scaling and I think sleeping Rosh (to prevent the steal) would be a good idea as well.

DeLLy_sl said:

Looks like there is some internal problems within NaVi, at least between Xboct and Kuroky. If one of them do leave, I'd have to think it was Xboct, but he has strong ties with the organization so I'm not sure if it be possible.

http://instagram.com/p/c4zbKwo8h6/#

And from reddit - XBOCT just made a post on vk.com (facebook-like social network)http://vk.com/wall3495719_10405

Rough translation is:

"Too bad that often your destiny depends on bunch of useless idiots... Thanks for your support, but na'vi doubtly will continue with this roster;("

Though Xboct is a troll so who knows.

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Last time Navi had roster changes there were rumors of him retiring, until something official comes out it's just a drunken ukrainian talking.

The Navi no wards situation usually happened when they were behind and lost a gem (that's another huge mistake, but w/e) so I can excuse them for not wasting any more money on that, since Alliance would just clean them up a minute later.

Random question, my smeevil is at 95 views (booo) and I need 5 more obviously. I tried watching replays of games I am SURE I never watched. I let it run all the way through, no increase :\ Halp!

Drtyrm_sl said:

Sutekh, what's your opinion on fountain hooks?

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Fountain hooks at least require 2 heroes and good coordination. Pushing lanes with one hero isn't quite the same. Also after having calmed down from the adrenaline high last night I do think Alliance deserved the win, I just dislike the way they did it in game 5. I still say that Navi should have banned out NP that last game and given Bulldog LD, they had already done it in one game and shut him down and won. Seems to me against alliance I would rather face LD and get the shot to kill him in a team fight instead of having NP porting everywhere and pushing my towers while I never see him since if you go on him he just ports away.

navi lost to NP in this tourney before to split push i dont think they were too worried was just unfortunate.

I'm expecting something along these lines:

Naga: Guaranteed aegis steal (assuming you have vision) is the only real problem with Naga atm. Her ability to punish BKBs is too interesting to nerf in my eyes. Expected nerf: Ultimate puts Roshan to sleep, similar to buildings.

Batrider: You can't really nerf his lasso or the force staff interaction without neutering the hero. Thus he needs a nerf to his laning ability, such that he won't dominate both the laning stage and the late game team fights. Expected nerf: Turn rate reduction on sticky napalm is reduced.

Furion: His ability to guarantee neutral blocks for the first few minutes is ridiculous and unique to the hero (now that wolves are nerfed), and must be nerfed somehow. His late game split push is also too strong, since there is no counter other than pushing straight into the base 5v4 and racing him (which few lineups can do). He needs to be easier to gank when he split pushes. Expected nerf: Movement speed nerf on treants. TP to share cooldown with TP scrolls, and become channeled rather than animation cast (which would make CD trigger at start of channeling). Start there, consider increasing TP cooldown in next patch if he's still too strong.

Wisp: Incredibly hard hero to nerf without neutering him. Tether tricks are too awesome to nerf, the hero's innate stats are already terrible, and Relocate is just inherently crazy strong. Will most likely see a creative nerf, so this is just guesswork. Expected nerf: Relocate gives the relocated unit (not Wisp) a -25% damage debuff for 12 seconds (Not entirely sure this is possible, since I can't think of any other debuff which reduces magic damage dealt).

Lone Druid: Stays as he is. He's not first ban material against most teams.

Chen: Stays as he is. He's not first ban material against most teams.

Naix: The only problem with Naix atm is the potency of the Naix bomb. Expected nerf: Reduced infest damage.

Weaver: Stays as he is. His TI3 dominance came out of left field and dropped off as the tournament progressed and people got better at counterpicking him (Tide, etc).

Pudge: Fountain hooks will be patched. Hilarious as that game was, it's a silly mechanic.

Visage: Really strong tri-lane hero, but unique and drops off in the late game. Similar to Chen in that he is only first ban material against certain players. Unstunnable birds are bullshit. Expected nerf: Birds can be stunned (and possibly CC'd by any other means, but will still be magic damage immune).

Alchemist: Unstable concoction is too strong an early game ability to have on the best ricer in the game, but nerfing it is a delicate balance before he's back to shit tier. Expected nerf: Damage and/or AOE on unstable concoction reduced slightly. Double damage on self deny bug fixed.

I have an extra Tide and Tiny card, I need riki and razor. Also have 2 of the TI3 WD helms, looking for the rubick staff and DS helm.

30minutes in que.. what the fuck.

TecKnoe_sl said:

navi lost to NP in this tourney before to split push i dont think they were too worried was just unfortunate.

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Alliance strategy was to push the base. Many focus on hero kills, ganks, and team fights. When all that matters is the base.

Even since original Dota, Cow Earthquake + Rock Golem backdoor ftw! I'm glad they proved that, honestly if all that matters is item builds and hero's go play LOL.

Hah. S4 didn't even get a triple TP cancel coil at the base.
Dendi didn't have a TP and xbox just chased around puck trying to kill him. For sure some confusion on their team. Should have just went for the throne so we wouldn't have to worry about Loda winning anything ever again.

I kind of doubt that we will see substantial nerfs to Bat and Wisp. They are exactly the kind of heroes that Icefrog wants in that they set a fast pace to the game and create opportunities for ganks and team fights. If anything, we will see other heroes buffed to the point where we see bat and wisp more often. One of the things I had hoped for in this tournament was Centaur in captain's mode, since he is that same kind of hero that provides the kind of consistent strong initiation needed to break disengagement strategies.

You look at changes to heroes like Huskar, Timbersaw, Spirit Breaker, Centaur, the abilities of the new heroes in DotA (hi Oracle), and mechanical changes like the Aegis timer, kill bounties, tower gold distribution, buyback timers, etc. and so on and it's obvious he is trying to crush passive play like its a bug.

You don't win a base race with Na'Vi's lineup against a farmed Furion and CK.

Split push is an essential tactic which is necessary to avoid 5v5 fights all day long. The problem is that Furion can do so too quickly and with minimal risk. He's nearly ungankable if he splits push when you are sieging, and if you send someone to duel him he will just TP back and have a 5v4 against the rest of your team.