DOTA 2

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
Illusions heroes are pretty boring though. I think adding an item that kills illusions more efficiently than the current ones would be good. Balanced by obviously being an item so someone needs a slot and money to buy it, but lets you deal better with lategame illusion bullshit. Obviously you can not let it go late etc etc but it's still very bullshit and extends games and makes them pretty boring.

Something maybe like, 20secs cooldown, small aoe, does x damage to illusions where x is base 500+distance between illusion and hero x2. This way it doesn't really do a whole lot if the hero is actually fighting with illusions(CK for example or like any teamfight where PL/Naga etc use their illusion for damage) but punishes the whole "sit in the jungle and chip at towers with illusions". Also punishes massing illusions which in turns makes it a bit easier to handle them if they come 1 by 1 to avoid getting destroyed by the item.

Thats where you need to get the bugs with Duel fixed so you can get Legion Commander into the meta, her overwhelming odds rapes illusion pushes. There's also Medusa, OD, etc who deal really well with illusions. Plus you have heroes with mana drain like Lion and Nyx who can insta kill illusions. I think its fine, and Valve has done a great job since last TI of making objective/ratting viable without being too overpowered...its like any strat, if you dont counter it hard with either early push or heroes who can deal with it you'' probably lose.

I agree drawing out games can be boring, but it still is an integral part of dota that needs to be an option.

Sutekh · Jul 10, 2014

Genjiro_sl said:
Thats where you need to get the bugs with Duel fixed so you can get Legion Commander into the meta, her overwhelming odds rapes illusion pushes. There's also Medusa, OD, etc who deal really well with illusions. Plus you have heroes with mana drain like Lion and Nyx who can insta kill illusions. I think its fine, and Valve has done a great job since last TI of making objective/ratting viable without being too overpowered...its like any strat, if you dont counter it hard with either early push or heroes who can deal with it you'' probably lose.

I agree drawing out games can be boring, but it still is an integral part of dota that needs to be an option.

Nyx mana burn doesn't insta-kill illusions but spell damage is the way to go really for someone like Naga who was a set amount. Lion does really well because like you were saying his mana drain instantly destroys one and aghs Finger can take out a whole group pretty easily.

Nebuchadnezzar · Jul 10, 2014

Still surprised Legion Commander isn't in CM yet. She also happens to have an anti-illusion skill.

Edit: That's what I get for tabbing.

Intrinsic · Jul 10, 2014

Sutekh_sl said:
Not at all, you don't want an item to counter a single hero that's just dumb. There's a reason there's a picking and banning stage. Stop trying to fucking pussify the game.

I'm less than a filthy casual when it comes to any of the real meta. Having said that I wasn't suggesting an item as a 'counter' to completely negate it, but as a situational advantage that requires some weighted risk/investment at the expense of something else.

But I get your point, although there seems to be more than 1 illusion hero so you still wouldn't want a single counter hero, right?

And after reading Genj's post there are even more things I'm unfamiliar with that already exist to help counter. I learn more every TI.

Pyros · Jul 10, 2014

Sutekh_sl said:
There are plenty of heroes in the game that can deal with illusions easily whether it be killing the illusions or pushing early/ganking etc. If you let Naga/PL/TB get to that point then you deserve to lose.

There aren't actually many heroes at all that can deal with lategame illusions. Lion can kill 2 which does jackshit, OD can kill them relatively quickly once he's farmed, Tinker can rearm sheepstick them, think that's about it for the practical counters? As for finishing earlier, I already pointed out, yes you can do that, and yet you often can't. If you can't it turns into a shitfest of splitpushing where you can't even punish the naga/PL for it unlike Furion or Tinker who have to put themselves in danger to actually do this shit and as such have obvious counters(storm, void, ember, beastmaster etc).

I mean consider this, why does Lone Druid have a leash range on his bear? Because if he could attack at any range, he'd just send the bear at shit while he's nowhere close and push lanes constantly like that. That's how illusions work. And while killing illusions is easier than killing a bear, illusions come in larger numbers and have much lower cooldown. Illusion proxy pushes isn't an issue originally, it's the scaling from items that make them retarded. And once you have radiance farming the items goes very quickly.

It's not unbeatable regardless so whatever, it's just pretty boring to watch, illusions. I'd watch a Bulldog's Furion game any day over a shitty naga illusion pushing.

gmstbfla_sl · Jul 10, 2014

There are lots of ways to deal with Naga's illusions. Tiny, Sven, Tinker, PA, PL, Medusa, Specter, Timber, any melee carry with Magnus, etc. They are just really strong against the current meta of singe target mid-gamers like Razor, Skywrath, Viper, Brew, etc. If I were to do anything it would be to nerf the duration of the illusions from 30 to 20 (same as PL) so Naga can't just sit back practically on her own side of the river and siege the enemy base with impunity.

Sutekh · Jul 10, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
There aren't actually many heroes at all that can deal with lategame illusions. Lion can kill 2 which does jackshit, OD can kill them relatively quickly once he's farmed, Tinker can rearm sheepstick them, think that's about it for the practical counters? As for finishing earlier, I already pointed out, yes you can do that, and yet you often can't. If you can't it turns into a shitfest of splitpushing where you can't even punish the naga/PL for it unlike Furion or Tinker who have to put themselves in danger to actually do this shit and as such have obvious counters(storm, void, ember, beastmaster etc).

I mean consider this, why does Lone Druid have a leash range on his bear? Because if he could attack at any range, he'd just send the bear at shit while he's nowhere close and push lanes constantly like that. That's how illusions work. And while killing illusions is easier than killing a bear, illusions come in larger numbers and have much lower cooldown. Illusion proxy pushes isn't an issue originally, it's the scaling from items that make them retarded. And once you have radiance farming the items goes very quickly.

It's not unbeatable regardless so whatever, it's just pretty boring to watch, illusions. I'd watch a Bulldog's Furion game any day over a shitty naga illusion pushing.

Sven with an MKB, Enchantress, Tiny, Kunkka, equally as farmed AM, equally as farmed Luna, Equally as farmed Gyro, Equal or even less Ember spirit, farmed Medusa, Storm or other initator that can jump in to pick off the real hero. There's a shit ton of counters to illusions

Lone Druid is not even close to being in the same league here. His bear has infinite duration and can do 10x the damage of illusions. You could just run it around the map soloing heroes that were alone while you sat AFK in base. Very bad comparison.

That Navi/iG game was not boring to watch at all.

Intrinsic_sl said:
I'm less than a filthy casual when it comes to any of the real meta. Having said that I wasn't suggesting an item as a 'counter' to completely negate it, but as a situational advantage that requires some weighted risk/investment at the expense of something else.

But I get your point, although there seems to be more than 1 illusion hero so you still wouldn't want a single counter hero, right?

And after reading Genj's post there are even more things I'm unfamiliar with that already exist to help counter. I learn more every TI.

I get what you mean but there are already things like Battlefury in the game, when equipped on certain heroes can deal with illusions properly. Void is not a good example of this since BF on him is purely a farming tool. There are so many little things about the game to learn, it's ridiculous.

gmstbfla_sl said:
There are lots of ways to deal with Naga's illusions. Tiny, Sven, Tinker, PA, PL, Medusa, Specter, Timber, any melee carry with Magnus, etc. They are just really strong against the current meta of singe target mid-gamers like Razor, Skywrath, Viper, Brew, etc. If I were to do anything it would be to nerf the duration of the illusions from 30 to 20 (same as PL) so Naga can't just sit back practically on her own side of the river and siege the enemy base with impunity.

The 10 second buff on duration compensates for the fact that PL's illusion costs 70 mana at max level. Just dopple walk and LOOK AT IT GO as it creates 16 things to fuck your base.

Pyros · Jul 10, 2014

Cleave is pretty awful to get rid of illusions, first you need enough damage to actually cleave for relevant amounts against manta heart butterfly illusions and 2nd unless the illusion guy is dumb as shit or it's PL, you don't keep the illusions grouped so they get cleaved, it's fairly easy to spread them around a building so you can only hit 1 or maybe 2(maybe more if you're tiny). You don't clear them quickly regardless so they get 300-400dmg on your buildings everytime by the time you're done cleaving them, unless you get 2crits right away.

It's not really the illusions themselves that are a problem, it's how fucking far the naga/PL and if he's ever added TB can be from their illusions while still shitting on buildings. There's no actual penalty for them mismanaging the illusions either, unlike say spiderlings. You send an army of spiderlings at a tower you push as fast/faster than illusions, but anyone shows up and aoe into them and they get like 300g for their trouble. You get jackshit from dealing with illusions and if it's naga there's a good chance you even lose half your health dealing with them. Give 5g bounties to illusions?

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

I think Medusa needs one more good tweak to at least make her a ban target if youre going to do that shit with CK+PL+Naga etc. She's a tricky one to balance though to not make completely overpowered as fuck. Maybe make Mystic Snake take like a certain percentage of illusions would be an awesome change, and along with her ult would make her the illusion slayer.

Also as I mentioned, Legion Commander just rapes those huge pushes of illusions, necro units manta etc

Sutekh · Jul 10, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
Cleave is pretty awful to get rid of illusions, first you need enough damage to actually cleave for relevant amounts against manta heart butterfly illusions and 2nd unless the illusion guy is dumb as shit or it's PL, you don't keep the illusions grouped so they get cleaved, it's fairly easy to spread them around a building so you can only hit 1 or maybe 2(maybe more if you're tiny). You don't clear them quickly regardless so they get 300-400dmg on your buildings everytime by the time you're done cleaving them, unless you get 2crits right away.

It's not really the illusions themselves that are a problem, it's how fucking far the naga/PL and if he's ever added TB can be from their illusions while still shitting on buildings. There's no actual penalty for them mismanaging the illusions either, unlike say spiderlings. You send an army of spiderlings at a tower you push as fast/faster than illusions, but anyone shows up and aoe into them and they get like 300g for their trouble. You get jackshit from dealing with illusions and if it's naga there's a good chance you even lose half your health dealing with them. Give 5g bounties to illusions?

I guess if the illusions have already destroyed your tower and are working on the rax MAYBE? But the point is that it doesn't get there when you have people to handle solutions. You're basically saying these things don't allow you to compensate for pathetically bad play. Yes there really isn't much of a counter if you lost all your towers again a 6 slotted illusion carry.

Not at all, if the actual carries are that far away? uhh go out and kill the illusions before they reach your base then. You can't complain about a heroes' play style being overpowered if you've chosen to intentionally ignore the tools that are in place to deal with it. No point to give bounty to illusions, I can see it for Broodmother since her spiders are insanely strong and can be used regardless of items and really levels. That's not the case for Illusion heroes at all.

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

FML, Im listening to Purge and Sunsfan cast this DK game on the newb stream so I dont have to listen to Ayesee scream stupid shit =|

Sutekh · Jul 10, 2014

EternalEnvy is playing like dogshit as usual. This is good news for TL!

niss_sl · Jul 10, 2014

Sorry but having a high hitting cleaving hero is NOT a counter to naga. I do agree that she needs a minor fix in some way. Look at game3 of recent DK vs Newbee final to see how bullshit it is. They had a farmed bfury void, farmed DP and a farmed mirana with mjolnir and they still had trouble dealing with it. She was easily pushing all 3 lanes. If you wanted to "cleave the illusions away" then you need your high hitting #1/2 position to be there and babysit the lane while the naga doesn't even have to be there and can push with the rest of the team (or another lane) which obviously is a huge handicap to your team. And don't even get me started on the fact that a single illusion can pretty much rape 2-3 supports alone and force them back to base.

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

Wow, this newb stream is absolutely brilliant by Valve. I can imagine how confusing listening to a cast of this who is new and wants to get into/check out dota 2. Theyre explaining why eblade is good for tinker, explaining the differences between taking the melee ranged rax etc.

Very smart move to get people into the game and let them understand whats going on in a game with hundreds of skills and items. Kudos to Valve

Sutekh · Jul 10, 2014

niss_sl said:
Sorry but having a high hitting cleaving hero is NOT a counter to naga. I do agree that she needs a minor fix in some way. Look at game3 of recent DK vs Newbee final to see how bullshit it is. They had a farmed bfury void, farmed DP and a farmed mirana with mjolnir and they still had trouble dealing with it. She was easily pushing all 3 lanes. If you wanted to "cleave the illusions away" then you need your high hitting #1/2 position to be there and babysit the lane while the naga doesn't even have to be there and can push with the rest of the team (or another lane) which obviously is a huge handicap to your team. And don't even get me started on the fact that a single illusion can pretty much rape 2-3 supports alone and force them back to base.

Bfury void is not a hard hitting cleaving hero, like at all. DP is not a hard hitting cleaving hero and neither is Mirana.

So I guess thanks for you mute point, it bottled my mind.

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

Medusa has a built in ranged cleave that's 80%. Again, some small tweaks to the heroes who were DESIGNED to deal with illusions are all that is needed, not to fuck over an important part of what makes dota 2 great, or design items that just straight up make those heroes unplayable.

Intrinsic · Jul 10, 2014

Yeah the noon channel has been really good while not being condescending or , limiting use of abbreviations, and keeping things at a higher level.

gmstbfla_sl · Jul 10, 2014

That's really the point. A six slotted naga is scary. Most six slotted carries are. If you don't have one yourself, you're probably going to lose. That's not a flaw in the game. If your team is relying on mid-game semicarries like brew, viper, razor, DP, mirana, etc. you better end the game before it gets to 40 minutes, because if you don't it's going to be a slow death against a Naga. That's the trade off for amazing utility early and mid game.

Pyros · Jul 10, 2014

Sutekh_sl said:
I guess if the illusions have already destroyed your tower and are working on the rax MAYBE? But the point is that it doesn't get there when you have people to handle solutions. You're basically saying these things don't allow you to compensate for pathetically bad play. Yes there really isn't much of a counter if you lost all your towers again a 6 slotted illusion carry.

Not at all, if the actual carries are that far away? uhh go out and kill the illusions before they reach your base then. You can't complain about a heroes' play style being overpowered if you've chosen to intentionally ignore the tools that are in place to deal with it. No point to give bounty to illusions, I can see it for Broodmother since her spiders are insanely strong and can be used regardless of items and really levels. That's not the case for Illusion heroes at all.

Can't kill the illusions before they reach your base because they move too fast due to manta/travel/drums(removed later on) speed. While you can dominate early and mid, naga is very good at finding farm regardless so you also need a lineup that can actually end the game quickly.

I mean, just look at how many teams lose to a naga even though they were winning. Good teams too. Happens all the fucking time. Kill naga, prevent her from jungling, she gets a 25+mins naked radiance. And she still turns it around at 35mins quite often.

I didn't have as much of a problem with PL when PL was all the shit because PL only does one thing. He makes illusions and overwhelms you. That's his thing and literally all his skills are built around this simple concept. Also PL has a huge ramp time, he's pretty fucking awful for a long time, because well he's a pure illusion hero and illusions suck early on. Naga is a lot more retarded in my opinion because her illusions are made on demand(no RNG, no need to actually attack shit on the way) but also because her other skills are extremely good. Ensnare is one of the very few CC that goes through BKB and interupt TP, Song is one of the strongest ultimate in the game in terms of teamfight control/initiation/disengaging/counter initiation and Riptide is a meh spell if not for the fact you get your illusions to cast it, making the illusions deadlier and push harder. When you gank her it's not like PL where all you have to bring is a gem or a sentry to see him, you need to absolutely make sure to disable her the entire time or she songs and get the fuck out. It means you need several heroes with disables to do it, which puts in a shit spot if she's been pushing all your lanes and quite often killing her gives you exactly 0 advantage since you have to go back, push all your lanes back and by the time you're done she has 20secs left to rez. Only thing you get is roshan, sometimes, but if she buys back you need to bkb to even loot roshan in case she uses song.

I'm all for the hero being strong as fuck. Many heroes are, that's fine. I don't like the proxy pushing and herpderp illusions a click. The fact you have to dedicate your carry to actually dealing with her illusions a clicking your base and that's somehow an acceptable counter is retarded. Illusions should be for farming and for teamfights/confusion, not for base pushing while you're sitting halfway across the map. If wolves or treants scaled with items, I don't think they'd be as easy to use as they are now, but that's pretty much naga illusions(riptide balances out the fact illusions are fairly shit compared to treants/wolves early on).

Genjiro · Jul 10, 2014

Right, AM can siege the fuck out of your base with manta when he gets fully 6 slotted and his illusions from an item can rape supports too.

Search

DOTA 2

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider

Nebuchadnezzar

Golden Squire

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness

Pyros

gmstbfla_sl

shitlord

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider

Pyros

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider

niss_sl

shitlord

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness

gmstbfla_sl

shitlord

Pyros

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider