EQ Never

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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I think it comes down to the value of the environment. I'll give some generalized examples that I think made the journey on EQ fun for me. I think of the value of camps and travel between towns. I think of Sand Giants for FS farming and plat with Lockjaw for a piece of gear. I think of trying to pull a camp of Dervs or Bandits without pulling a too many or a named like Dorn. I think of going to Unrest for good exp, loot, fellowship, and a challenge and what I did to get there (i.e. boat, avoiding faction hating NPC's). I think of traveling to get certain spells, meeting up with friends for a raid, or helping someone complete a quest.

These may be bad examples and a little cliche for someone who played EQ but, I think of everything I did along the way in EQ and the fun I had that honestly eclipse my end game experience. I raided for years in a raiding guild but when we talk about old times, its about camps, dungeons, and the dum things we did and the people we met. Right now, the journey is just a quest line of some really boring quests. Pretty well everything around you is just a waste of space. This why I dislike instances. This allows you from a design standpoint to not put so much worth into your open world. You stuff all your best exp and loot experiences into instanced dungeons and completely disregard everything else. People don't want to take part of the journey because it is simply an annoyance and not worth your time. MMO's have even developed to skip this step. Just sit in a city queue up for your experience and off you go. What's the point? You might as well remake diablo and have everyone sit in a chat room and wait to go into a game. Until an MMO puts everything needed to progress your character back into the open world, you will never have this "journey" again.
I love the romanticism of the "journey" and the idea of living in a world. I know what that feels like because I've been there and done that in other games. But I'm a practical guy, and it would take a really good game to change that paradigm of leveling vs. end game. For a journey game these days, you would have to get rid of numbers. No levels and no stats, no damage numbers floating up above the person's head. You would have to completely restructure the expectations of players when they enter your game.

Then you would have to design a way you can build your character as it gets older which is haaaaaaard.

The point is, that in today's gaming world, you need to create an incentive for people to care about the journey. If the only way you can make people slow down the leveling process is by gating it by exp gain per hour, you're going to lose the fight. You have to create another incentive or gating mechanism that is more fun.

Otherwise you're just creating another stock MMO with a world, and levels, and items and this time it takes you 8 hours to level and not 3.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
My content is similar to EQ where player interaction actually matters. The world has more danger in it. Classes are more unique and players rely on each other. you're not accounting for those things which make up the real journey/experience people are talking about. It's like it just alludes you. I'm not going to break it down bit by bit. You're being difficult and asking us to reinvent the wheel when we think the model used in 1999 worked and could be built on without turning the game into a casual carnival where everyone gets a prize..

And the money argument again.. A lot...
Well we're talking about creating a game here right? The reality of that is that it costs money to make, and a lot of money to stay working. I mean if we want to just circle jerk our perfect game design without even considering if it would ever be made, fine, but that's kind of pointless. I'm all for creating hard games, with player interaction and a sense of challenge and danger. I never commented on a good class/character development system (most of today's class systems are crap). That has nothing to do with it.

My only point of this particular discussion, which we're getting away from, is how do you slow down the game to allow for more of a "journey" outside just increasing the experience curve? All of your ideas (and a lot of them are good ideas) can be done independently of time to level. They can be done in a game that allows you to level once a minute or once a week.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
There is your three examples to take ideas from, modernize them, and BAM! You have a game tailored around the experience of being in a world rather than some end game instanced bullshit you do over and over.
I don't disagree with you for the most part. The crux of this whole discussion is what does "modernize them" mean to you? THAT! is where this kind of discussion needs to head towards.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Ok then if you are stuck with levels and exp, go the route of a UO or TSW and make it a skill based system where you dont have to ding or watch exp bars. Damn man, its like your shortsighted or something. Why is it you want end game? Explain to me how an end game is any different from just enjoying the game with friends? Its like youve been brainwashed to have to have an end game.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Well we're talking about creating a game here right? The reality of that is that it costs money to make, and a lot of money to stay working. I mean if we want to just circle jerk our perfect game design without even considering if it would ever be made, fine, but that's kind of pointless. I'm all for creating hard games, with player interaction and a sense of challenge and danger. I never commented on a good class/character development system (most of today's class systems are crap). That has nothing to do with it.

My only point of this particular discussion, which we're getting away from, is how do you slow down the game to allow for more of a "journey" outside just increasing the experience curve? All of your ideas (and a lot of them are good ideas) can be done independently of time to level. They can be done in a game that allows you to level once a minute or once a week.
But you're assuming there is no money in it. It's just an unfortunate turn the industry took to capitalize on another companies success.. The smoke is beginning to clear and eventually a smart company will go back and look at history and ask why games like EQ worked. There could very well be a time where the cool thing is to play an EQ like MMO..

As far as journey.. All those things add up. You're not accounting for them. Again, seasonal content with my example of a creek bed drying up during the dry season and giving players access to a new dungeon for a few weeks. Or seasons changing..an area of the world that opens up harvesting materials when the snow melts. Choices players will need to make. Do I continue to level or should I go to other end of the world and go harvest XYZ material before the area freezes over again?
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
a lot of the enjoyment comes from being emotionally invested in the world. modern mmos don't appeal to those sensibilities so you're left with soulless products that try to convey the strengths of single-player games in multiplayer settings. modern mmos have the potential to become fantasy worlds, something not afforded by single-player games. it's the whole reason this genre exists.

you don't NEED to be doing something every minute in an mmo. unfortunately, today's players see uninterrupted button mashing as fun and idling as a failure.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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But you're assuming there is no money in it. It's just an unfortunate turn the industry took to capitalize on another companies success.. The smoke is beginning to clear and eventually a smart company will go back and look at history and ask why games like EQ worked. There could very well be a time where the cool thing is to play an EQ like MMO..
Exactly, how many failed WoW clones will it take for the industry to wise up and rethink where they invest their money? If I had a million dollars to invest I would be dammned to invest it in another WoWish clone. Would you, Draegen invest your million dollars on yet another iteration of WoW?
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Ok then if you are stuck with levels and exp, go the route of a UO or TSW and make it a skill based system where you dont have to ding or watch exp bars. Damn man, its like your shortsighted or something. Why is it you want end game? Explain to me how an end game is any different from just enjoying the game with friends? Its like youve been brainwashed to have to have an end game.
Here's my point of contention with levels and "end game". I really enjoy character building in games. Ignoring what kind of content the game has (raids, solo, group, dynamic, static) and ignore what kind of combat it has (slow, fast, hotbar, action, fps), assume I really like how the game plays and the activities the game has to offer. The one thing I really enjoy playing in these games is augmenting my character. I love testing out builds, I love getting gear so I have a tank set or a dps set or a magic set or a resist set. I love farming content for the chance to get a gem that makes my fireball green or shoot twice or fork in two different directions. I love all of that kind of stuff. I don't care if that stuff takes 1 hour to do, or 10 hours to do. As long as I enjoy handling my character and the content in which I'm playing is fun.

There's your journey. There is where I empathize with your love for building character. I would love to do it in a game where most of that is in a hard class system that needs grouping. I would love to do it solo. I find it interesting if there was a sense of danger where if I died, I would have to start a 6 hour dungeon crawl all over again if I couldn't recover with my group. I would love doing it in a world with no instances and slow or fast travel.

What I don't like? I hate spending 75 hours in a glorified tutorial (or whatever /played it is to max level) before my character gets all his tools. The whole time I'm playing a game and leveling up, I am not satisfied until I have all my build points and skills. To me, the whole time I'm leveling is frustrating because I'm starting at my talent tree, or skill tree or whatever and just waiting until I have all the points I can have to allocate. The whole leveling process, to me, is a waste of time because it's content I'll never do again.

That is why I'm arguing for a way to get rid of levels.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Because you are conditioned to play this way. RPGs from the onset of the first games such as zelda and other jrpgs were all about advancement, or finding that next item to make you more powerful. You slowly gathered your skills, spells and or levels over time. This is the entire foundation of RPG. The foundation of growing stronger through gaining experience. The carrot of gaining a new skill or spell or whatever the more time you put into a game. Growing in power through gaining experience.

You say you dont want to play a glorified tutorial, its because this is what essentially is wrong with todays MMORPGs. Its bland stale non exciting trivial content you have to slowly wade through to get to the good stuff, and this is not how it should be.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
a lot of the enjoyment comes from being emotionally invested in the world. modern mmos don't appeal to those sensibilities so you're left with soulless products that try to convey the strengths of single-player games in multiplayer settings. modern mmos have the potential to become fantasy worlds, something not afforded by single-player games. it's the whole reason this genre exists.

you don't NEED to be doing something every minute in an mmo. unfortunately, today's players see uninterrupted button mashing as fun and idling as a failure.
For a lot of people, knowing there are other people around you sharing your single player experience is enough to make it a much better experience than a standard single player game. For a lot more people, they log in to an MMO to play a video game, so they want to be doing something every minute.

I'm now one of those people that don't have the time anymore to sit 5-6 hours a night playing games. I used to come home after work and play 6 hours a night instead of sitting on the couch watching TV. That's now shrunken down to 2-3 hours a night and now my weekend are taken up by my growing family and home ownership. I really don't want to idle online and do nothing. I can do that enough on these forums during the day.
 

Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
Ok then if you are stuck with levels and exp, go the route of a UO or TSW and make it a skill based system where you dont have to ding or watch exp bars.
This is what I'm thinking. Guild wars 2 felt pretty good in how did 'outleveled' content, so devs can easily make can make some sort of incentive to re-do newbie areas (things like exploration, achievements, quest lists in every zone, etc.) and now I think the next evolution of that would be to drop the level system, or do some sort of hybrid system of level/skill system. Shit, maybe even a level, skill-on-use, and skill-over-time (eve) all mashed into one so that you're constantly progressing in different ways, but never trivialize things completely. I basically just want some sort of innovation, and not the usual "blast through the quest hubs, hit 80, start the real game."

I don't expect everyone to like this kind of game, but I want there to be more diversity in MMOs. WoW does what it does best, so I think they should focus on being "different" and maybe drawing a different crowd, even if it is a much smaller userbase.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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I'm now one of those people that don't have the time anymore to sit 5-6 hours a night playing games. I used to come home after work and play 6 hours a night instead of sitting on the couch watching TV. That's now shrunken down to 2-3 hours a night and now my weekend are taken up by my growing family and home ownership. I really don't want to idle online and do nothing. I can do that enough on these forums during the day.
This has been me essentially since I started playing EQ in 2000. I was 26, with a career, a home and a kid on the way. I never had 6-8 hours in one sitting to play games, other than maybe weekend nights. And yet i found time to play them and never did I think to myself, well this was wasted time because I didnt get a doggy bone tonight. Why? Because I was having fun inside of a living breathing world, even If I didnt accomplish anything that night.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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3
Because you are conditioned to play this way. RPGs from the onset of the first games such as zelda and other jrpgs were all about advancement, or finding that next item to make you more powerful. You slowly gathered your skills, spells and or levels over time. This is the entire foundation of RPG. The foundation of growing stronger through gaining experience. The carrot of gaining a new skill or spell or whatever the more time you put into a game. Growing in power through gaining experience.

You say you dont want to play a glorified tutorial, its because this is what essentially is wrong with todays MMORPGs. Its bland stale non exciting trivial content you have to slowly wade through to get to the good stuff, and this is not how it should be.
You're comparing games where the main objective is to beat the game and unlock further progression, your character's levels and abilities were only tools for that. There's also usually a pretty good story to go with it. Not only that, you have no one else to compare yourself to. You just can't compare that to an MMORPG, in my opinion. I mean if you can somehow create the single player experience of NWN, Baldur's Gate, Ultima etc inside an MMORPG then you've got me and I wouldn't mind slow leveling stuff. I just don't think you can do that when you have 1000's of other people running around your world doing the same thing as you.

Also, don't insult my intelligence to say that I was just "conditioned" to play this way. I've been playing online games this way for 20 years now ever since I found a glitch in Shadows of Yserbius in 1992 that allowed me to get 100 levels in a few hours so I could get through the early parts of the game faster.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
that's kind of the point. you can't recreate the experiences of baldur's gate in an mmo.that's what developers nowadays are trying to do and they're failing miserably.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
What I don't like? I hate spending 75 hours in a glorified tutorial (or whatever /played it is to max level) before my character gets all his tools. The whole time I'm playing a game and leveling up, I am not satisfied until I have all my build points and skills. To me, the whole time I'm leveling is frustrating because I'm starting at my talent tree, or skill tree or whatever and just waiting until I have all the points I can have to allocate. The whole leveling process, to me, is a waste of time because it's content I'll never do again.

That is why I'm arguing for a way to get rid of levels.
If you start out with everything you need, what's the point of playing? Don't you think in some respects this is exactly what many games have done by simplifying the entire process, which removes the motivation to even play. This is why current games being released have such a short shelf life.
 

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,138
3,839
I keep using this thread as a sounding board for new ideas. It might not be the proper use of the EQ Next thread, but until Smed stops pissing butterflies and rainbows and starts talking about details, I suppose this is as good a place as any to discuss possibilities.
Character Development
So I have been thinking about experience, levels and general character development. More specifically, how the leveling system is very restrictive and rather cumbersome for games that intend to offer more content later.

A typical level system has a finite number of levels, each level contains a specific set of rewards laid out for a particular class, with some rewards being generic and available to everyone. Each level breaks down into the experience gathering phase and the reward phase. The rewards come in the form of skills, stats, equipment options, new spells ect. Most of these are tied to a vendor or trainer of some sort. Sometimes the reward is simply a higher cap and the player must then grind more experience or a different kind of experience to reach it.

Often times when characters reach max level there is some kind of additional advancement technique applied to keep players engaged in developing their characters. These systems can be as simple as acquiring new gear, or can be wholly different systems that require acquiring points to purchase advanced skills.

My opinion is that the leveling system should simply be replaced by whatever alternative advancement system might be used at max level. Why create a mish-mash leveling systems that jumps from one style to the next. Just simplify things and stick with a consistent method.

Elements of Advancement
So my idea essentially breaks each element of the traditional level reward system down and allows them all to advance with a bit more player input.
So what are these elements and how would they behave?

Player Stats
The foundation of almost any character. In this system player stats would come in the 7 traditional varieties: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. These stats would all have a range of 0-100. The stats would all begin at 0, a fresh character would be given 20 stat increasing points to allocate. The points would not have to spent during character creation. A player could play a little and spend them where it helped them the most when starting out. Additional stat points would be earned through completing tasks, actions and quests. Much in the same way cert points in Planetside 2 or alternative advancement points in Everquest are earned.

So every action would add a little bit of "stat" experience towards the next point. Quests might award a number of stat allocation points. These points would start off as a 1:1 ratio for purchasing stats. However, it will start to require more stat increasing points to purchase higher level stat points. So for example, increasing strength from 0-50 will cost 50 points (1pt each), 51-60 will cost 20 points (2 pts each), 61-70 will be 30 points (3 pts each), 71-80 will be 40 points (4 pts each), 81-90 will cost 50 points (5pts each), 91-95 will cost 40 points (8 pts each), 96-99 will cost 60 points (12 pts each) and the final point to get to 100 will cost 20 stat points. This means it will require a grand total of 310 stat increasing points to cap a stat.

I figure each stat increasing point would require about 1000 experience a piece. Experience can only be obtained through successful actions. Kills, lockpicks, item crafts, persuasions of npcs, ect. The amount of experience gained would be influenced by the difficulty of the action performed. Typically actions that require more time to perform would net more exp. I figure the target for a good 4 hour play session should net on average about 8500-10000 xp. for people going along at a steady pace.

Stats would not be set in stone once purchased. A player could at any time choose to earn "respec" points that allow them to remove a single stat point and then re-apply it. These respec points would cost 450 experience each. A refunded point would return all the points associated with it's cost. So refunding the 100th point on a stat would return 20 stat increasing points.

A player will be capped at 400 actual stat points. This would create a situation where a player that put 50 points in each of the seven stats would be able to cap out much sooner than a player that went to 100 in four stats. However, a character with 50 points in every stat would only be able to go to 100 in a single stat. This greatly limits their selection of skills and abilities later on.

So a player with four level 100 stats would have to earn 1,220,000 total exp. A player with 6 stats at 57 and 1 stat at 58 would require 440000 exp. Both players have reached the stat cap but one would be heavily specialized with glaring weaknesses and the other would have no strengths whatsoever. So most players should arrive somewhere between the two extremes. This means it would take about 7 months to reach the cap in 4 stats for people playing the above mentioned 4 hour sessions most nights. And about 2 months to reach the spread out stats. I am thinking most people would wind up taking about 4-5 months to max out their stats. This does not take into consideration respeccing and the like.

Player Skills
Skills would be passive modifiers that govern certain actions. Having a good daggers skill will increase attack rates, critical chance and so on when using daggers. Skills would also influence active abilities. Casting a fireball spell and not lighting yourself on fire in the process would require a decent evocation skill. Basically a higher skill grants a higher success rate for a particular action. Skills would increase through use and there would be no limit as to how many you could master. However, a particular skills maximum level would be determined by a base stat. Skills would have a range from 0-100. If a skill had strength as it's base stat, then having a strength of 98 would afford a maximum skill level of 98. If a stat were to be reduced the skill would be capped at the new reduced level. Any skill points lost in this manner would have to be relearned, at half of the original rate. So gaining a skill back would take half the time.

As a last piece, skills would have to be trained from a master before they could be increased further. Also, there would be thresholds placed on how high a skill could go until a player received proper training. Once the first point of a skill had been trained, a player could increase that skill to 50 without further aid. However a Master would have to be found in order to train to level 51. Once this is achieved the player can then train to level 90 without any additional help. Finding a Grand Master to train to 91 would unlock progression until level 100. At each tier, skills would increase much more slowly.

Some skills would require a combination of stats to determine their cap. This combination skills will be much more advanced. If a skill has two base stats, the skill cap will be the average of the two stats. So in order to advance a combination skill to level 100, both stats will have to be at 100. There may even be some rare advanced skills that are based on three different stats.

Equipment
Each piece of equipment would have a governing skill that determined either the success rate of using that equipment with an action or the benefit gained from wearing it. Anyone could wear anything... however there are serious trade offs to consider. First, with weapons, each weapon interacts with various Abilities and spells differently. Some don't work at all. Finding weapon and ability combos that work well would be one consideration.

Next, armor would have many limiting factors. Generally the more protection a piece of armor confers, the more restrictive it is. Armor would be able to deflect or absorb physical damage and resist or negate magical damage. Deflect increases the chances of a glancing blow, Absorb would reduce the effects of a hit and reduce the chance of a critical hit. Resist would simply reduce the effects of a magical hit while negate would essential cause a fizzle. Rare magical artifacts might even be able to reflect spells. Heavy armor would reduce mobility and prevent some acrobatic abilities. Being able to move at all in heavy armor would require a decent heavy armor skill. This skill would require lots of strength. As for casters Heavy armor would reduce spell ranges dramatically. To the point where a caster might only be able to target themselves or the items they wear.

Equipment would not contain any stats. Each piece would have it's intrinsic qualities and not much else. You would select a sword for it's weight and balance and edge. Attack speed would be determined by your stats, the weapon skill, the balance and the weight. Weapon Damage would be determined by your stats, the weapon weight and any edge modifiers. A skilled swordsman would skill be able to kill his foes armed with a rusty blade. A novice with an enchanted long sword would probably still end up dead.

Abilities & Spells
This is where everything comes together.
These would be the actions taken by a player. Their success rate would be determined by a skill. Their effectiveness would be based on a stat. Their behavior would be based on a type of equipment. So take a common physical attack skill like cleave. It allows a melee character to attack multiple enemies at the same time. It's effectiveness would be based primarily on strength and some on dexterity and lastly some on agility, this effectiveness would come in the form of a modifier, i.e. 110% of weapon damage. The speed that the skill was performed at would be determined by weapon speed. The skill would require a bladed weapon like a sword, axe, halbred ect. and it's range would be determined by the equipped weapon. Lastly the weapon skill of the equiped weapon would determine the rate of success. Did it strike a glancing blow? A normal hit? A critical? A miss?

Or take a fireball, it's effectiveness would primarily be determined by intelligence, and dexterity. It would need a free hand, or a focus of some kind, (wand, staff, enchanted blade). The staff would increase the range and damage, but also the cast time and cost. The wand would reduce range damage, cast time and cost, and allow the spell to be used in quick succession. An enchanted blade would turn the fireball into a point blank attack that dealt tremendous damage to a single target. And a free hand would cast it as normal. The skill of evocation would determine if it was a critical hit, normal hit, fizzle or critical failure. Trying to cast a fireball without the necessary skill level might end up in engulfing the caster in flames.

Abilities would have a minimum skill level, being the first moment a player could attempt to use an ability and a recommended skill level, or the skill level at which this ability no longer receives a penalty. Acquiring new abilities would require finding a trainer who teaches that ability. Many abilities will be closely guarded secrets requiring the player to earn the respect, trust or fear of the party who is to teach them. Some abilities might be rediscovered from long lost texts or inscriptions and would have to be pieced together via questing. Players could act as teacher to a limited number of pupils at any one time once they gain a high enough proficiency. (Master level or higher generally)

And lastly, there would be a limited number of spells a player could have ready at a single time. This number could be influenced by stats, skills or even equipment. But it would require an amount of time for a player to change their spell load out.

Abilities would be constrained by equipment choice. On average there would probably be no more than 10 abilities for a single weapon type with several of those abilities being shared among similar types. Acrobatic abilities would be constrained by armor choice. Your character might know 50 different weapon abilities but there would be no possible combination of equipment that would allow them to access them all simultaneously.

Combining spells and abilities would be very possible, however, the material that weapons and equipment would be constructed out of would determine their suitability for use with physical attacks or spells. Generally the desired traits for one form of attack would be the opposite of the traits for the other. A mage could still be proficient in using staves, but his crystal staff would be made to channel energy. A monks iron staff would be made to beat people to a pulp. Hybrid characters would have to figure out where the best balance for their play style would fall.

Synopses
So basic premise is this...
Stat increasing points are awarded with every 1000 exp. gained.
Experience is earned from successful actions.
Stats determine potential skill caps.
Most skills must be learned from a trainer before they can be improved.
Skils are capped by a governing stat, but have thresholds that must be removed by finding a master and then grandmaster of that skill.
Skills gain some exp each time they are used to determine an outcome
Skills determine success rates (hit rate)
Equipment establishes base rates for damage, attack speed, and defensive stats. These are then modified by skills and abilities
Equipment modifies ability behavior. (damage, speed, range, cost)
Equipment does not contain stat modifiers.
Abilities and spells rely on everything else to determine how an action behaves, how effective it is, and what it's chance of success is.

"Classes"
So looking at this you see no classes. And you would be right. However, I still believe there is a way to maintain a sense of class differentiation with a skill based system. And that is through factions and titles. A player joins a particular group and is given a title, this title confers some bonus ranks to certain skills that reflect the nature of the title. Higher ranked and more prestigious titles confer bigger bonuses. Also, access to trainers which have better and rarer abilities would be limited to those of the appropriate title. Most major promotions within a faction could require certain tasks or quests to be completed. This would make achieving a high rank or title feel prestigious and memorable.

So stats and equipment would be left up to the players discretion entirely. Skills , abilities and spells would reflect on where the player has decided to place their allegiance.

Anyways if you read all this... holy crap, you must be as bored as I am.
 

Lemmiwinks_sl

shitlord
533
6
On a completely different topic:

Why don't more MMO's incorporate more little sidegames? Think of FF7's golden saucer. There is undoubtedly a large portion of players that would consume the fuck out of this kind of thing implemented properly. Look at FF8's card game (I swear to god I'll slap the person the goes on a derail about how it was just a grind for junctioninig, or that it sucked, thats not the point), WoWs pokemon, gems in EQ, ect.

Coming up with 5 of these dumb little minigames would add some flavor, as long as its kept within reason. I don't know about you guys, but I enjoyed gems in EQ. Can't find a group? No friends or guildies you like online? Bored of leveling? Downtime in group? Or hell, maybe you just logged on to challenge other players to a risk-like game.

Imagine if a game implemented more importance on player's resources such as mana/stamina, and this lead to some downtime after a large pull, a death, or whatever. During this downtime, a player's avatar could whip out some dice, and challenge a group member to a dice game to win 10pp. Devs could implement a card game sort of like MTG, and players could get these cards from fun little sidequests, rare drops, or whatever. You could go to a tavern and just play the card game, dice game, or many other sidegames that are developed. Maybe there's 3 different mini-games players can play on the fly, keep dice or cards on them in a separate bag for those supplies, and just right click on a player an challenge them to a chess-like game for a bet, or just for shits.

There need not be any purpose for the game, just the fun of playing the game itself (!shocking!). Sure, if there was a card game, I'm sure players would be shitting themselves to trade you X item or give you gold for Leet_Card_05. If done correctly, there would certainly be large amounts of players subbing just to play the card/dice/golden saucer zone of the game. I've always thought there should be a "party zone" where players can go to, seriously, just like golden saucer with tons of goofy sidegames with leaderboards and players would always be running an obstacle course to get the best time.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
I think gamers are conditioned that burn through the level up process as fast possible. Then do end game content for your +1 items once you gather your items sit and bitch there no end game or roll an alt. The bypass that is done on low level mid level content is absurd why cause I don't need that gear cause I am going to replace it in T minus 2 hours.. some that low level shit is really good. But most don't see it on there quest to get there tools and plus ones..

Levels and classes and need to go..its becoming the grind for purples. I don't mind pve but do it for fun not because I get a cookie at the end same for pvp.make immersive dynamic challenging content around fuckin fun not a race to the loot pinta at the bottom.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
I think gamers are conditioned that burn through the level up process as fast possible. Then do end game content for your +1 items once you gather your items sit and bitch there no end game or roll an alt. The bypass that is done on low level mid level content is absurd why cause I don't need that gear cause I am going to replace it in T minus 2 hours.. some that low level shit is really good. But most don't see it on there quest to get there tools and plus ones..

Levels and classes and need to go..its becoming the grind for purples. I don't mind pve but do it for fun not because I get a cookie at the end same for pvp.make immersive dynamic challenging content around fuckin fun not a race to the loot pinta at the bottom.
I agree with half of that statement. People do need to slow down, but they won't, which is why a "forced" slower leveling progression is necessary. But removing levels also removes the reward factor. How many nights did we(assuming you played EQ) stay awake for "just one more level, just one more ding"? Jesus, it was the main driving factor behind the success of Everquest.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
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Alot of the reason people put up with the journey in EQ is cause people didn't realize they were wasting their time. Alot of that was because EQ was their first mmo rather than cause of any brilliant design that EQ had that WoW didn't. WoW had all those people too who enjoyed the journey and leveled slow.. it just wasn't us cause by then guys like us knew it was mostly wasted time.

In EQ velious era you had people camping stuff like a GBS, or slowing down at lvl 50 to camp fear armor or get that pair of eboots, or trying really really hard in the scarab camp to get a lammy.. when for the most part putting your head down and grinding out to 60 and heading straight to kael arena or HOT was by far the better plan for all those people... cause those items we were camping were pretty much trash, and it wasn't til later that we realized this.. then we go into WoW and they have all the same shit, but this time we know better, we know to just get to cap and start raiding, we know to check wowhead to see if spending 50 hours at lvl 40 getting that sword from sunken temple was worth it (it wasn't).. and then we complained that the game had lost its journey.

Leveling in WOW at launch was also not that much faster than leveling in EQ, the primary difference was it was way easier to get knocked off the rails in EQ, die in lguk and spend 3 hours on CR, spend the evening LFG and find a group with an hour left to play.. but the actual hours that you spent xping to get to cap were not as far apart as alot of people think.

I think you need a game more like EQ Kunark era, as much as people like velious or PoP they are examples of the first time sony caved and gave us the carrot. Velious was a shower of raid loot, the first time you could only raid and actually come away with a full set of gear and the raid gear just trashed any group loot you could get. And PoP was the first xpac where they really reset the gear, the easy trash raid mobs in a T1 zones outclassed raid drops from the hardest content in the previous xpac. exactly the same crap people bash a WoW xpac for today. Kunark struck the best balance, raid gear was best but not so much better that it made a grouper feel like they were trash.