EQ Never

Tol_sl · Feb 19, 2013

regarding the EQ hipster shit, I don't think most of us want to throw out most of the progress we've made, we're just trying to narrow down what progress is. When WoW came out, I was excited about it. I didn't cling to EQ like someone trying to endlessly relive their first MMO glory days. Wow did a *lot* of shit really well, and is probably some of the most fun I've had in gaming, right up there with early eq, EVE, and UO. I don't want to go back to 8 minute med times and staring at a spellbook endlessly.

What I *do* want is something new, exciting, and more sandbox oriented. Because I am goddamn bored of wow clones. I feel like I've played an entire decade of them, with none of them innovating much or even polishing wows formula. Personally, I love roguelikes and games like dark souls, so I want something challenging, with some consequences and rewards. I don't want to go back to shitty mechanics and have to re-invent the wheel, I just want something different. I'm fine with super casual and easy to access games, or bleedingly brutal and unforgiving. I would play both. But I want variety, and I want them to stop making me collect 10 bear asses and move to the next fucking quest hub. We don't want another wow, because wow does what it does well, and we have a dozen other versions of wow that do it terribly mediocre.

supertouch_sl · Feb 19, 2013

travel is about pacing. people seem to be suggesting that eq forced players to traverse vast landscapes in order to get anywhere when in reality people would find a port and run through a couple of zones to reach their destination. furthermore, the design of the game didn't demand frequent travel.

if you have a game with a quest hub structure that requires lots of movement then instant travel is fine because those environments usually aren't worth becoming invested in.

mmos don't make good "games." if there's one fundamental difference between the single-player game and the mmo it's that the mmo has the potential to become a fantasy world. unfortunately, developers miss the mark every single time. and instead of a fantasy world, you get a multiplayer setting with ineffective single-player mechanisms.

LadyVex_sl · Feb 19, 2013

There was an article I read years back that came out after PoP released - when that expansion hit, a lot of older EQ gamers decried that it was ruining the game, and omg portals to everywhere? WTF ARE THEY THINKING?

But, they also found that with the portals in place, more people saw more of the world in EQ than ever before. The issue in EQ at that stage was not that runs and getting portals were hard, but that they were annoying, and if you weren't the right class, time spent trying to get a portal etc versus exploring was relative. Once they put the portals in, it wasn't such a god damn drag, and there were quite a few articles written about all the crazy shit people were just getting around to doing.

There's a difference from hard (which is good) and annoying (which is bad) and some of the things people want brought back only served to be annoying, moreso than hard.

As an example, finding druids/wizards sometimes fucking sucked, but players circumvented that a bit by actually maintaining a travel system themselves - you'd pay for the service, but if you zipped to the spires in gfaydark, you'd probably find a wiz who was selling ports. So why didn't they just add NPCS that did this? (For the record, I think they eventually added TL NPCs or something later, but it was a bit too late, imo.)

There's a definite balance, between making something nuanced and making it stupid, and that needs to be maintained.

Rezz · Feb 19, 2013

That, however, is one of the core arguments of the hipsters. They -like- that certain zones (containing spires/rings) were larger hubs than those without when it came to player interaction. Which I'm not shitting on, I'm just saying that is how they felt. And I don't neccesarily disagree with that standpoint. But, and I use this example often, the off-hours player wants a port he is probably going to be disappointed by the abilities of players in that realm. Tell the guy to log into a server that supports his playtime? Rude, but understandable. An easier response would be to simply make some automated ports from spire to spire or ring to ring that require above and beyond the consumables that a druid/wizard would use in a similar venture. Options, mofo, options.

If nothing else can be gleaned from my posts about game development, I hope that even the hipsters realize that all I want are options. Options to enjoy games as you like. Options to do shit in a game. Options for the sake of simply have divergent paths through content. Options, son.

Draegan_sl · Feb 19, 2013

Deisun_sl said:
I disagree and I think it can be done in an interesting way. Your examples sounded pretty horrible to me though. So maybe your idea of it is not the same as mine.
Putting mobs in the way is not the solution. Events like protecting a random caravan is not interesting.

Finding a rare spawn like Lodizal with very valuable loot along the way CAN make you want to visit an area and hopefully you hit the lottery? What if your crafting system didn't actually suck and was actually interesting? What if there are nodes worth exploring/discovering and fighting over? Wow...what a revelation.

You CAN make people want to travel these lands...you're just not trying hard enough.

This is what I said in the end:

If you have to make a system where you don't have autopilot long travel, then your only recourse is to make the game world itself interesting which is almost impossible to do for every square inch.

Can you make resources interesting or npcs that drop loot interesting for the long haul? Sure when the game is new, travel is fun because you explore and you find new spawns etc. Every new MMOG is like this regardless of travel methods. But what about 3 months down the road? Is that still interesting that you have a rare spawn with some gear? Is that resource node still worth stopping and getting? What about 1 year down the road? When about 2 expansions down the road? Are you driving players away from old areas, or are you still making them slog through them?

Now it's easy to say that making nodes worth exploring/discovering and fighting over. But what does that mean? You can only explore and discover something once. Why are you fighting over? A Darkness Falls type of thing? That's cool and could work, but how many of those are you making to make travel everywhere important?

There are elements of good ideas, but in the end it's still travelling. You want to get somewhere to do something fun, so you have to spend time doing something to get there. Ultimately its content for when you can't do other content yet.

@Utnayan: You really think you can develop a game around people farming resource nodes for crafting? That hasn't worked in any game I've known unless it's the only game in town.

supertouch_sl · Feb 19, 2013

"why didn't they just add NPCS that did this?"

you clearly don't understand the nuances of interplay in eq. frustrations and annoyances have their place in a game and if you can't see that then i don't know what to tell you.

Draegan_sl · Feb 19, 2013

No they understand it. They just think that not being able to find a person to port you, thus ruining your play time is not fun.

LadyVex_sl · Feb 19, 2013

Rezz_sl said:
That, however, is one of the core arguments of the hipsters. They -like- that certain zones (containing spires/rings) were larger hubs than those without when it came to player interaction. Which I'm not shitting on, I'm just saying that is how they felt. And I don't neccesarily disagree with that standpoint. But, and I use this example often, the off-hours player wants a port he is probably going to be disappointed by the abilities of players in that realm. Tell the guy to log into a server that supports his playtime? Rude, but understandable. An easier response would be to simply make some automated ports from spire to spire or ring to ring that require above and beyond the consumables that a druid/wizard would use in a similar venture. Options, mofo, options.

If nothing else can be gleaned from my posts about game development, I hope that even the hipsters realize that all I want are options. Options to enjoy games as you like. Options to do shit in a game. Options for the sake of simply have divergent paths through content. Options, son.

Right. I agree with this.

I also don't understand why people want "nuances" and "annoyances" and "frustrations" in a game. I don't go down to the god damn pizza story unless it's worth my time, but people are willing to PAY to be annoyed? That's such a confusing concept to me.

Tol_sl · Feb 19, 2013

Oh, definitely. My ideal system would be something like PoK books, but have it be unlockable and account bound. Lets say you do the qeynos-freeport run. Fantastic, that was awesome fun and exciting and adventurous. It won't be the next 100 times you do it. So have the books for Qeynos, Freeport, and Highpass all unlock on your account, so your alts can use them without having to do that shit again. It encourages you to explore the entire world, find all the ports, and then in the future saves you the redundancy of having to run through the karanas a million times. I liked how classic WoW did flightpaths. I got to explore once or twice, then skip the bullshit in the future. Flight time is boring, so I would just do unlockable warp points to most zones, with the big open pvp (if thats in the game) stuff being a lot more footwork required. I guess GW did this with waypoints too. I didn't like EQ's system because it seemed like half the time I just had to pay some dumbass named Taxiwizports to get somewhere, and I felt like I was just bothering most druids actually exping or playing the game.

supertouch_sl · Feb 19, 2013

no, they don't. the whole point of the eq was to promote player interaction. you had to rely on other people for almost everything you did in the game.

it's like those people who label you a masochist if you want death penalties in a game. people who oppose that sort of thing see a death penalty as nothing more than an inconvenience and can't possibly fathom why they would be valuable. people who prefer death penalties don't get off on them. i never thought dying was fun. however, i appreciate their purpose.

supertouch_sl · Feb 19, 2013

LadyVex_sl said:
Right. I agree with this.

I also don't understand why people want "nuances" and "annoyances" and "frustrations" in a game. I don't go down to the god damn pizza story unless it's worth my time, but people are willing to PAY to be annoyed? That's such a confusing concept to me.

that's all that needs to be said

Deisun_sl · Feb 19, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
This is what I said in the end:

Can you make resources interesting or npcs that drop loot interesting for the long haul? Sure when the game is new, travel is fun because you explore and you find new spawns etc. Every new MMOG is like this regardless of travel methods. But what about 3 months down the road? Is that still interesting that you have a rare spawn with some gear? Is that resource node still worth stopping and getting? What about 1 year down the road? When about 2 expansions down the road? Are you driving players away from old areas, or are you still making them slog through them?

Now it's easy to say that making nodes worth exploring/discovering and fighting over. But what does that mean? You can only explore and discover something once. Why are you fighting over? A Darkness Falls type of thing? That's cool and could work, but how many of those are you making to make travel everywhere important?

There are elements of good ideas, but in the end it's still travelling. You want to get somewhere to do something fun, so you have to spend time doing something to get there. Ultimately its content for when you can't do other content yet.

@Utnayan: You really think you can develop a game around people farming resource nodes for crafting? That hasn't worked in any game I've known unless it's the only game in town.

Well it's just a matter of keeping those things relevant which is a whole nother topic but I also think that can be done too. Lets take Lodizal just as a small example. I don't remember what his drops were but I remember him being highly sought after for quite a while - perhaps the whole expansion. Now, you may argue that he eventually became irrelevant in future expansions and I think you're right...he did. What if one of his possible drops was something VERY nice and valuable for a twink character or even a new friend? That makes Lodizal stand the test of time even 3 expansions from then. Just a small example, but keeping things relevant is an obstacle that can definitely be overcome.

Grim1 · Feb 19, 2013

Travel in EQ before PoP wasn't that hard, even for tanks. Every tank worth a damn had their OT hammer, gate potions, etc. I loved getting my OT hammer out and then praying for it to proc. It was always fun.

One of my fondest EQ memories was traveling with a friend from Qeynos to Freeport as a lvl 14 noob. One of the scariest and more exciting experiences I've ever had in a game. Those are the types of travel experiences that mmos need more of.

Travel in EQ got easier as you leveled. It wasn't a big deal. However, the ease of travel after PoP came out was a positive. Especially since the game was much bigger then and the noob areas not as populated as before. It was an evolution that had to happen for EQ at that time. EQ in the early days was a much smaller world.

Tol_sl · Feb 19, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
One of my fondest EQ memories was traveling with a friend from Qeynos to Freeport as a lvl 14 noob. One of the scariest and exciting experiences I've ever had in a game.

Haha, me too. I was a 14 druid and he was a bard. One of us died to those bandits in highpass, and it was some of the scariest "away from home and in trouble" shit I've experienced in a game to date. We finally got to freeport but relied on random people at exp camps (where we would stop, get buffed up, ask for directions and shoot the breeze) constantly along the way. Sadly it's really hard to hold onto that magic once you learn stuff like, "hug the wall and run through kith, you'll be aight." But it was still really magical at the time. I'm not sure if that sense of danger and community can really be recaptured, but I think "journeys" (I'm so sorry for opening that shitcan of worms again) can only really be had in sandbox style games with no questhub style railroads, and a wide variety of KoS and high level mobs sprinkled throughout the world rather than "this hub is 10-15, this zone is 10-20".

Convo · Feb 19, 2013

Travel in EQ added to the game through player interaction, trade and economy. I think what people are saying is by doing away with all these little " annoyances " like travel and death penalties although, minor by themselves...add up to be a large portion what makes a mmo in a lot of people's eyes. The access is great but it's a trade off that some players feel is not worth making because the world doesn't have the living, breathing, dangerous feel to it. It's really a case of needing the market to support multiple niches.

Grim1 · Feb 19, 2013

The size of the world and how populated it is, really is key. EQ had to go with PoK books when they did because of all the expansions that spread everyone out too much to group effectively.

Flipmode · Feb 19, 2013

Fast travel in a big, open, non-instanced world will only lead to one thing. 1-2 guilds with the highest playtime having every mob worth killing on lockdown. That is reason enough alone to slow down travel and make it meaningful. I dont care how good your game is, if the average gamer is prevented from progressing their goals by another player or guild for too long, they will leave your game. The solution of making people choose their target seems like a simple one to me.

Utnayan · Feb 19, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
@Utnayan: You really think you can develop a game around people farming resource nodes for crafting? That hasn't worked in any game I've known unless it's the only game in town.

Yep. 100% guaranteed.

Featuring heavy world "Wake State" of War. PvP for all resources, no raiding, persistent battlefields, nothing instanced. PvE will be in a dream state of "Peace". No one is a hero. Everyone is a participant. You can only sleep for a total of 8 in game hours (1 hour of every 3 in real time) which ticks off whether you are logged in or not. Here you can do quest content which has a translucent dimensional impact on the real world's battles in the waking player's game. Phase shifted dynamically based on questing system impact per faction. (2 factions) Once you wake, you are thrown back into the real world, which is a centuries long battle between two factions which never seems to end. Here, PvP and resource harvesting takes effect to make items. To avoid 200 people knocking on the wall to "Keep on knockin' but you can't come in" syndrome, PvP will be handled much differently. (More later on that)

These resources dynamically shift across areas similar to SWG's resource harvesting system, except there is actual PvP content around every single area which you * must * hold to gain access to the nodes. All items are hand crafted/balanced by developers. All Art is hand crafted by artists. The entire game is 1st person to recognize efforts by looking at them. When battles in PvP (Victory conditions met) is won by the evils, the dream realm associated with that zone in PvE becomes corrupted and invaded, causing disruptions and more quests in that given area to battle it back. (Obviously only able to be done by those asleep in the game) When Battles are won by the goods in the Wake State, the Dream world becomes uncorrupted and for a brief time, PvE advancement is done by a plethora of mini games, carnivals, contests, duels, etc.

Complete with a non instanced sandbox environment with in game housing, crafting, high end house crafting based on resources fought upon, and items really sought after not only from a weapon/armor/fun/trinket perspective, but from a housing perspective. Including true interactive items inside a house to make a player * Want * to visit other homes for something cool to do for PvE EXP in their dream state. Or... just a house in of itself. Obviously, this can be invaded as well. You will want to protect your house/belongings with hired mercenaries, or players.

Just a 50,000 foot overview.

Creslin · Feb 19, 2013

My opinion of the PoP ports is that I hated them, but mostly cause I think PoK is the most horrible dead feeling hub city ever, I truly hate it. had those books been in a city with character like Thurg or Kael or Qeynos I prolly would have hated them less.

I do agree that tying travel to finding a wiz or dru isn't great design. EQ travel ranged from fast to might as well just log off and try tomorow depending on whether you found one. Atleast in WoW you had some ports that made things faster but if you didn't find that port you weren't totally SOL.

I don't blame the POP ports EQ added for making the game feel smaller, that was entirely because the xpacs got smaller and smaller. Even PoP, while big, was all accessed through one zone... had it been laid out like the previous expansions then it would have felt just as big as those expacs did, regardless of the books making old world travel faster.

supertouch_sl · Feb 19, 2013

you needed others to accomplish a specific goal. i'd say the design was fine. and finding a port wasn't difficult unless you're a mongoloid.

EQ Never

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