EQ Never

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,097
321
Slower paced game play allows more opportunity to talk to people. That's not even debatable. What's been lost is the NEED to even talk to begin with. Everything is basically fast and quick. People patience and attention span seem lacking these days. People's social skills are about non existent in the newer generation of gamers. And that can be laid at the feet of the devs. They created games that were mostly solo fests and instances so people don't have to behave themselves or mind their reputation. They can fully be that anonymous Internet asshole and the community can't really blacklist them anymore to where it affects that persons gameplay.
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
927
611
How to play WoW:

Check off one of three roles. Teleport to dungeon. Run into pack of mobs. Whack-a-mole cooldown buttons until mobs die. Click food/water. Wait 20 seconds. Repeat until Boss. At boss, avoid fire. Buy gear with points.

How to play EQ:

Determine group class makeup dependent on desired activity and which classes compliment the classes already present. A bard for example will favor caster heavy groups but be much less empowering to a melee heavy enchanter group. A FD puller might enable certain camp options, like the fungi camp. Certain activities (such as PBAoE groups) have strict class requirements. Certain group compositions can eliminate downtime entirely. A backbone of Cler, Shm, Ench with some skilled play will usually reduce downtime to nearly nothing once buffs are done. Add mod rods or bard regen for overkill.

Decide which zone to do considering group classes, gear, player ability, activity (AoE grind, melee grind, etc), desired loot, and ZEM.

Port group. Cast scale of wolf on group or sing selos, possibly lev. Run to zone super fast. Enter zone, possibly invising past dangerous mobs, (Charasis) or navigating a lower level dungeon first. (Guk)

Decide which buffs to cast, who to cast them on, when, and in which order. Tanks arrange buffs so that insta clicks are at the top for dispel protection.

Summon and resummon pets until an acceptably high level one is kept. Arm them.

Drop mod rods. Twitch cleric and/or shaman. Use manastones. Heal buffers.

While group buffs, rogue monk or SK scouts zone for open camps.

Weigh the risk vs. reward of camp options or whether to try luck in another zone.


Begin pulls.

On large pulls do:
Pacify mob(s) and/or attempt to FD split. If FD splitting, tank pulls mob(s) off feigned puller from range if mobs do not walk home at same time, else reattempt split.

On small pulls do:
Mana check group long before current mobs in group die. If mana permits, have puller leave group for next pull before mobs in camp die and attempt to time the arrival of incoming mobs at the same moment the last mob in camp dies.


Once combat begins, tanks do the following:

If enchanter in group:

Tank or MA (main assist; a non-tank assist has advantages) targets front mob, possibly also hitting a 'assist me on X' macro so party is confident when hitting assist will give a correct target. Enchanter targets and mezes one of the back mobs. Rest of group assists tank/MA.

Tank casts on, or procs on, or simply does some damage to the first mob. If tank is the designated assist, he makes sure not to switch targets too quickly so group can get the correct target. Tank then targets a non-mezed mob, builds hate on it, and watches chat carefully for enchanter's mez cast macro to avoid mez break. A mez macro allows a tank to freely attack any mob to build hate on it as he can simply turn off attack right before mez lands. Meanwhile group stays on mob #1.

When all mobs are mezed, tank brings the assist mob to the next mob to die, stops auto attack, targets the next mob (which is mezed), hits taunt, retargets old mob, and resumes attacking until old mob dies or taunt recycles. When MA wakes up the next target, mob will not only be on tank instead of enchanter if a taunt succeeds, but will also have hate on the mob as high as the enchanter as taunt is highest hate + 1.

If no enchanter in group:

Tank routinely swaps targets and builds hate on each while group sticks to one mob at a time; stays on first mob a bit to allow for assists.


Debuffers do the following:

Enchanter, if present, tashes each after mezes are done.

If mobs are strong enough to warrant malo debuffing, the magician will if present else the shaman does, possibly announcing it to the party with a macro.

If charming, be alert and malo immediately after mez breaks so that it lands before the enchanter can finish his tash + stun + charm routine.

Shaman or Enchanter slows mobs when able, announcing to group. Often mez is not broken by the MA until the next mob is slowed, possibly requiring the group to wait a moment.


Cleric does the following:

Fully hitpoint buff the tank. Macro your CH key to announce casts and time them to land so as to not waste mana but also not risk the tank's death.

If you are not the only healer, waste as little mana on non-CH heals as possible; let others do the off-healing, as CH is ridiculously more efficient and the group's pace is largely (almost entirely) limited by your mana.

Ask for and consume mod rods if available. Wear regen items.


Melee DPS do the following:

Monks and Rogues drag corpses and scout when required. Possibly act as main assist. Monks pull mobs instead of tank. Ranger... tracks. (and snares) Attack mobs from behind to maximize damage. Keep an eye on buffs. Annoy the shit out of enchanter or shaman for haste when it drops as it doubles your dps. Ask at convenient times.


Caster DPS do the following:

Assist MA, pet attack if applicable.

On large pulls with no enchanter, kill the first mob as quickly as possible ignoring mana costs but without wasting healer mana-- either be just aggressive enough that tanks regain aggro quickly or possibly kite. Multiple casters in group nuking hard simultaneously might allow you to ignore aggro entirely.

If multiple mobs attacking simultaneously is not an issue, pace nukes out more for consistent damage to minimize risk of aggroing mobs.

Keep mana levels high enough that mana is available for an unexpected large pull, but low enough that you minimize time spent at full mana.

If no mez is available, root capable classes might be on ghetto CC duty. Wizards stun caster mobs. Necros might need to ghetto mez. Magicians damage shield tank and summon pet weapons, arrows, food, etc.


Misc duties:

On a bad pull, Druids and Wizards make judgement call and hit evac macro that ensures no ambiguity on casts, allowing groups to call a possible abort.

Somebody must be on snare duty: either the druid, ranger, necro, or even a warrior with a snare whip. If no snare is available, care must be taken to root or stun runners.

In outdoor zones, druids keep SoW up and possibly take over other duties like pulling and pacifying. Charm becomes much, much safer.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,370
2,436
Torrid, you should compare modern day EQ to modern day WoW. Instead of modern day WoW to classic EQ.
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,762
13,044
I don't get the love of downtime either. I hate the fast pace of wow dungeons now because I miss CC and hard hitting mobs of cata and tbc. I'd concede some of the DPS rotations could use some pruning but as far as DK, lock, and ret pally, seems like that's the level I'd want for combat. My original rant had fuck all to do with the challenge of "risk," I was discussing combat, downtime, and theorycraft. Give me TBC/wotlk level rotations and up the risk to high heaven for all I care. You can still balance it for combat to require attention.

Put cc, interrupt, mob splitting, kiting, fewer item (with less of a power curve on ilvl), and do instance and uninstanced dungeons with WoW rotation downtime and that sounds even more challenging.

I'd like uniqueness in classes but my god have more than one main tank or healer class. I get why wow does some of its homogenization of pure survivability and hps. I don't get why all the fucking buffs and utility were doled out and everyone made to have dps CDs and procs.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
Teleport to dungeon. Run into pack of mobs. Whack-a-mole cooldown buttons until mobs die.Click food/water. Wait 20 seconds.Repeat until Boss. At boss, avoid fire. Buy gear with points.
This tells me his is talking about Vanilla or BC WoW. If you linger for 20 seconds the first time you catch up to your group is at the next boss fight, everything else dies on the move. (afaik, not subscribed).

Torrid, you should compare modern day EQ to modern day WoW. Instead of modern day WoW to classic EQ.
Looks like he is talking about classic WoW.
 
1,678
149
Well I defended the idea of camping for items and XP. I never defended the idea of it taking inordinate amount of hours to get the drop. I hated that shit too. But you can fix that easily, WoW just threw the baby out with the bathwater. For example, the camping for XP is fine, you are always doing stuff. And for most items (Dvinn's dagger, the Polished Granite Tomahawk, Minotaur Axes etc..etc..) it wasn't a problem because they dropped reasonably often - nobody ever complained about that.

The only problem was that some items they wanted to be 'rare', ended up taking days or weeks for some people. But in those cases they could have just replaced that item with tokens that drop every time. So mob spawns every 30 minutes, has a token. Have an NPC that requires 4 tokens, bingo. You never get it too fast, or too slow, it always takes about 2 hours.

Give EQ some of these minor tweaks and it would be the best thing ever. The problem is that WoW totally over engineered everything and became an entirely new type of game with it's own new set of problems. And EQ's methods have never been seen again and never been improved upon.

Yet EQ's population continued to dwindle with people bailing for WoW whos subs continued to grow. I am not sure how that equates to "only on paper".
Because most people are sheep and go where the herd goes. The herd flocked to WoW and it became a phenomenon. But it doesn't mean it's the best, design wise. Just like McDonalds don't make the best burgers, and Justine Beebeeer doesn't do the best music. etc.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,253
916
All the nostalgia is well and good but seriously, anyone that thinks camping for a rock to pop and get an item for a literal 7 calendar days can go fuck themselves. That isn't challenge. That's tedium. Camping a named for 24 hours that you kill in 2 minutes isn't challenge. It's tedium.

I'm all for meaningful classes, slowing the leveling curve down, rare loot being rare, etc. Its all the other crap that people look back fondly on as said above. You couldn't devote that much time to any game nowadays. And if you can, no wonder no games are good enough for you.
And running an instance or PvP battleground 100 times to get some currency to walk up to a vendor and just buy whatever you want is any better? I think you essentially put in the same time doing meaningless tasks to accomplish something without any creativity. WoW, EQ2, SWTOR, Rift, etc. all came to this... I spent days queuing and queuing hoping to win so I could get more tokens so I could ultimately get the same piece of armor that everyone else in my race/class had in that level range. At least with EQ it was for a unique item and you had the opportunity to travel to different dungeons and kill different mobs. I had lists of items that I was shooting for in EQ and where I needed to go and get them. I hated in EQ2 sitting in my house/guildhall/town whatever right next to a vendor and just pop in and out of instances.

I think there may be two extremes out there and hopefully they found a happy medium.
 

Kegz_sl

shitlord
171
0
And running an instance or PvP battleground 100 times to get some currency to walk up to a vendor and just buy whatever you want is any better? I think you essentially put in the same time doing meaningless tasks to accomplish something without any creativity. WoW, EQ2, SWTOR, Rift, etc. all came to this... I spent days queuing and queuing hoping to win so I could get more tokens so I could ultimately get the same piece of armor that everyone else in my race/class had in that level range. At least with EQ it was for a unique item and you had the opportunity to travel to different dungeons and kill different mobs. I had lists of items that I was shooting for in EQ and where I needed to go and get them. I hated in EQ2 sitting in my house/guildhall/town whatever right next to a vendor and just pop in and out of instances.

I think there may be two extremes out there and hopefully they found a happy medium.
EQ made you really value your gear and the time it took to get it, including all the challenges within that time - the other did the opposite, and made it too easy to get gear.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
This tells me his is talking about Vanilla or BC WoW. If you linger for 20 seconds the first time you catch up to your group is at the next boss fight, everything else dies on the move. (afaik, not subscribed).
Food/water restore health/mana and take 30 seconds to do it. 20 would be waiting less than the full time. That's the reality of WoW.
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
Because most people are sheep and go where the herd goes. The herd flocked to WoW and it became a phenomenon. But it doesn't mean it's the best, design wise. Just like McDonalds don't make the best burgers, and Justine Beebeeer doesn't do the best music. etc.
It doesn't mean it isn't the best design though. Everquest is a slow boring game for stoners and bored housewives. That's all that plays anymore, everyone else moved on because they were bored after 5 years of auto attack and corpse runs and all that other bullshit no one really wants.
 
1,678
149
It doesn't mean it isn't the best design though. Everquest is a slow boring game for stoners and bored housewives. That's all that plays anymore, everyone else moved on because they were bored after 5 years of auto attack and corpse runs and all that other bullshit no one really wants.
Don't those kinds of people just play WoW? I think the only people left playing EQ are old school nerds.

But either way, I don't think it's a slow boring game. Slow, fair enough. But it's not boring because you are constantly focused on how best to make progress. The progress doesn't just happen like it does in modern games, it requires real effort and that is pretty involving. I would admit that the classes are too simple to really justify the speed of progress though. First time it wasn't so bad, but on future plays it becomes really boring spending a whole week of playing regularly and still only being level 10, and still only having 4 things to press during combat. But that could be easily tweaked. Again, WoW didn't fix those things, it just completely reinvented the wheel.