EQ Never

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tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
As far as combat..

Bad = 5 people doing the same thing.

Good = mobs acting/reacting with a number of abilities/behaviors that no class or combo can deal with
I don't know. I like the trinity because it enforces roles. The only combat I could see as better is if the combat AI was tweaked not to be naturalistic (wtf that means eqn as tf?) but instead tweaked to act like an actual non-dick dm to use kruegen's expression.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
"Everyone is responsible for their survival" has been a thing since, like, Onyxia. Even EQ1 raids try to do it these days. It doesn't mean you have no healers and no tanks, it means that everyone has to avoid standing in fire (er, giant red markers on the ground. Gee, Heigen sure would have been a lot easier with those)

But I always enjoy the "trinity replacement" discussions because the end result of them is always some terrible dogshit that is far worse than the problem its trying to solve. A problem that hasn't really existed since EQ1 and its parade of encounters with"CH chain on the tank, everyone else autoattack!" That shit is long gone, so this feature they are touting should be new to no one and is nothing to worry about.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
EQN Official forums have 15 hidden discussions. Someone hax dat.

rrr_img_39996.png
 

slicedmass_sl

shitlord
132
0
their awesome ai is gonna be groups of mobs you have to fight at once, 5-10 mobs with no possibility of ccing them all. Bosses will just be immune to cc and go for the weakest in the group first.
 

Kharza-kzad_sl

shitlord
1,080
0
I skipped a few pages, but the collision stuff made me wonder if any recent games have tried to solve that?

It seems like you'd have to have server side correction. There are a lot of strange quantumish situations you can get into with latency.

I multiplayed the old baldur's gate and icewind dale games with friends and we used tank + chokepoint quite a bit. Healing was touch range with a few small exceptions.
 

Drakonar

Molten Core Raider
28
0
Does anyone know (or have a link) about the underlying software tech for the AI? From expert systems to neural nets, etc., a lot of ai tech has been old hat for decades.

Expert Sys can simulate a dynamic mode but quickly grow unwieldy. Neural are/were ok for limited scope projects. My knowledge in the field is a bit out of date, but I'd be very interested in the base software design of what they're using for EQN.

"smedbox..." eewwww
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
The trinity is just a name for a process that involves more than one player. One player takes damage, another heals the damage taken, and the last does damage. At a high, abstracted level like we discussed pages back, it's just a process that involves multiple players shifting sets of numbers around from each other to the mob. But the key point, the key mechanic, is that this shifting involves more than one player working together: it requires multiple players working as a team to shift them efficiently.

Because one player can't shift these numbers alone, a 'role' in this process is realized. And this role means something specific: you cannot perform other activities involved in the process because those activities are reserved for other players, otherwise there is no teamwork, no working together.

If they get rid of the trinity as we know it, the question to ask then, is what process that involves multiple players will that be replaced with? You have to replace it with something - that is, if your game is numbers-based like every other rpg ever made, then you have to create a process that forces players to shift these numbers around as a team. You can't remove it and put nothing in its place. You cannot give everyone a piece of every role and expect it to 'work out'. You need a specific, systems design-oriented process in place that forces players to play ONE part in that process of shifting numbers, else whatever mechanics you have will not be a better design than the trinity.
 

Teekey

Mr. Poopybutthole
3,644
-6,335
You need a specific, systems design-oriented process in place that forces players to play ONE part in that process of shifting numbers, else whatever mechanics you have will not be a better design than the trinity.
Good post Dumar.

They're constantly saying EQ Next is going to be like nothing we've seen/played. I really wonder if their solution is going to be something no one here has thought of.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,334
11,633
I skipped a few pages, but the collision stuff made me wonder if any recent games have tried to solve that?

It seems like you'd have to have server side correction. There are a lot of strange quantumish situations you can get into with latency.

I multiplayed the old baldur's gate and icewind dale games with friends and we used tank + chokepoint quite a bit. Healing was touch range with a few small exceptions.
my thoughts on this was always, what exactly is wrong with that?
body blocking a doorway while archers fire from ramparts sounds like good intuitive design and play.

now, sure. we then start giving ncps abilities and AI that can counter these tactics. Backing off. forcing players to leave the protected area. Trample skills so that 20ft tall ogre isn't being body blocked by the 3 ft halfling. Pulls, or spells allowing npcs to pull ranged attackers into melee range, or off ramparts. Destructible environments also helps solve this.
 

misery_sl

shitlord
495
0
So, assuming that the AI that they put into these boss fights is, on average, as smart as a normal player would be at figuring out which player to target, then we should probably also assume that advanced AI boss fights will play out similarly to PvP fights with actual players. Has anyone ever played a game that allows you to successfully tank in PvP outside of certain abilities(hamstring, sacrifices, etc?)? What is the point of armor if you're only "tanking" a mob by kiting and using cc abilities? Assuming you sacrifice DPS for survivability, what is the point of not simply bringing that caster who can tank with ice wall and slows, all while doing massive DPS? I get what you guys are saying, but they are going to need to go more in depth as to why a tank would ever actually be needed, because this is the way I'm imagining things right now. I can see healing working out in certain tough encounters, which is fine. Also, they talk up their combat AI semi-trinity system so much, but how many of you think they have actually tested it out? Do these things ever go as planned?

It will be exciting to see what this whole thing really turns into.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
And as soon as you have to fight something in an open field its back to kitefest 2000. Tanks and +aggro exist for a reason.

WoW already had a PVP raid where mobs ignored threat mechanics. It was a lot of kiting, a lot of defensive cooldowns, a lot of people randomly dying with absolutely 0 chance of survival. Once a few enemies were killed, it was just boring and annoying shit full of chasing goddamn mobs around trying to hit them.
 

Carl_sl

shitlord
634
0
And as soon as you have to fight something in an open field its back to kitefest 2000. Tanks and +aggro exist for a reason.

WoW already had a PVP raid where mobs ignored threat mechanics. It was a lot of kiting, a lot of defensive cooldowns, a lot of people randomly dying with absolutely 0 chance of survival. Once a few enemies were killed, it was just boring and annoying shit full of chasing goddamn mobs around trying to hit them.
I was gonna post about how I thought that fight was decent, but really once you killed the 2 or 3 mobs that were most dangerous it really was waiting for the dps to nuke down the rest of the stupid mobs. At least they were cc able.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
I was gonna post about how I thought that fight was decent, but really once you killed the 2 or 3 mobs that were most dangerous it really was waiting for the dps to nuke down the rest of the stupid mobs. At least they were cc able.
CC with dimi returns though. Usually it was a melee that died, because they'd be hitting the assist target, which would have four or five buddies around it, and they'd all decide to focus one melee and he'd get flattened before anyone can react.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,782
8,267
I think the idea is that every class is gonna have some kind of mitigation ability based on gimmicky world destructibility, or straight up avoidance (blinks, dodge roll, bubbles, rescues). They are gonna replace taunt with dozens of different cc methods, which is kinda cool I guess, as long as combat isn't a clusterfuck like GW2 (which they claim they are aware of and will avoid).
 

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
I don't see combat generally lasting long enough for a kite fest. Like most shitty MMO's right now, mobs probably won't live more than 30 seconds. The ones that do live long enough are probably like the void golem thing and can just avoid most attacks.

Sorry for the pessimism. Maybe they can prove us all wrong. They could possibly have mob AI know how to counter kite, using their own defensive/support/movement abilities to catch up to you, or just simply stay out of range and nuke you at the same time as you nuke them. Who knows... This all depends on how well they develop this teased mob AI. Something they should have just released all info at the same time so we did not have hopes of awesomeness...
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
The AI shouldnt aim too high. The dumb orc hacks away at whatever comes in front of him is ok with me. Give creatures recurring behaviour patterns and you change combat. That *can* involve some smarter opponents gouging the melee that was distracting them and charging a priest, but it doesnt always have to. Smarter monsters running away when they think they lose is interesting too, forces everyone to be more on their toes if something might bolt away right after engaging.

As far as ping pong combat goes, collisions detection and features like daze can mitigate that. This is simplified but if every attack to the back snared you for 3 seconds you wouldnt just rush past a warrior or rogue to get the priest. Instead, you have to jockey for a position to lose them without eating that daze and wasting your chances of getting away.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
I was gonna post about how I thought that fight was decent, but really once you killed the 2 or 3 mobs that were most dangerous it really was waiting for the dps to nuke down the rest of the stupid mobs. At least they were cc able.
Popular consensus was that once you killed 2~3 of the mobs if you still had most of your people standing the rest should surrender or it should have been more like the AQ multi-mob fights where as they went down the remainder got super saiyan powers. As it stood it made little sense to have a boss fight that was only difficult for the first 15 seconds and then was sleep mode the rest of the ride home.

As far as the trinity goes, tanking is pretty much just dps anyways at this point so who gives a fuck. 99% of a tanks job is to position the mob. Other then that he's doing the same shit all the other dps are. Healing is just an excuse to have an extremely easy roll for your girlfriend to play in fights once you outgear the encounter and up until that point the only thing that is difficult is not fucking up your cooldowns.

You don't need the trinity but so long as it doesn't cockblock you from doing content because your one geared tank isn't on that night who gives a shit if it is there.
 

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
536
47
They're constantly saying EQ Next is going to be like nothing we've seen/played. I really wonder if their solution is going to be something no one here has thought of.
Watch it be something totally out of the box, e.g. similar to no stats on armor, weapons dont have dps only abilities(hamstring, fire arrow), and then mobs wont have hp only a 'hit count' say 10 hits kills a kobold and 50 on an orc and so-on.
That way, even when you are tier5 you could still be overrun solo by 10 kobolds, but maybe your tier5 mace has some abilities to help mitigate crowds.
Edit: And it falls into the 'as long as a healer helps do dmg' (attacks) they'll be participating, and cuts down on gear/dps inflation. And maybe certain affects, like fire, count as 2 hits vs a mob w/ fire weakness.