EQ Never

so still nothing concrete about this game? check

I think the idea to look at when speaking of EQ's subs is to remember that approximately half of a million people were exposed to the type of game it was during its peak. I think timing is in their favor. I believe that people do not necessarily want what EQ was but they would sure like to experience it again. That's not to go without saying that it may possibly fall on its face but, its the idea that we have tried MMO-ezmode 1, 2, 3 and every cloned variation under the sun so, I would like to try it the other way again.

Word of mouth is vitally important to MMO's. Even if 250,000 people grab EQN, which is a pretty low number compared to what everyone expects to be an success, and they sing its praises, it just might work. I do believe however that this is SoE's last chance to make anything that MMO players will take seriously. If EQN fails they might as well make Facebook games. Not to mention, Blizzard should be revealing Titan before too long so they'll have to share the spotlight with them going forward. I know no one likes comparisons but, regardless of your MMO tastes or preferences, MMO's are like political parties or religious sects. People get really passionate and even defensive about the MMO they love and play so anything EQN does will get put up against anything people love or hate in the MMO industry past, present, & future.

etchazz_sl said:

so it's impossible to make EQ with modern graphics? that's what you're telling us?

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Define modern. But, generally yes. If you want a high production value game, your design documents have to be incredibly broad to attract the most users as possible. The more niche design you create the less money you're going to be getting to develop your game. MMOs need a lot of money to function correctly. I mean you can go low budget and make Darkfall if that is what you want. But low budget comes with shitty customer service, shitty network engineering and lacking game functions and tools.

qwerty_sl said:

Ok first off, Minecraft says hello. So does Mark of the Ninja, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Angry Birds, and various others.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting the game should look shit. What I suggest is something like Portal and Portal 2. They still looked good and nobody complained about graphics, and yet they used an old engine that they just tinkered with. SoE already have the engine from Planetside 2, all I'm saying is that they should just focus on making the game and don't add all the flash that other games do - so no voice overs, less music, etc. IE: More like the original EQ and less like TSW/SWTOR/GW2 etc.

Thirdly, you should spend some time looking at mmo charts. Those games didn't actually hit a million, more like 800,000 max, but they also did not settle at 300-600k. AoC sold well but was down to 100,000 almost instantly, and never recovered. Warhammer clung on a bit longer while dropping, but soon enough it ended up 100,000 too. Rift, its peak was 600,000 and in less than a year it was down to 250,000.

EverQuest however, did extremely well. It grew slowly up to 400,000 in the first two years, then it plateaued but held strong for the next FOUR entire years, and then shot up steeply to 550,000 and didn't dip below 400,000 until 2006. My point is that a new game which aims deliberately at those kinds of players, could realistically get at least 500,000 players and hold them for several years. And if you add that up, it's far more profitable than the games which come in big and are dead a month later.

Oh and lastly, if it wasn't for 'Neckbeards', Smed wouldn't even have his job.

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Ok I'll bite on this because at least you put some thought into your response.

First: When you list a game like Minecraft and Angry birds, it's obvious you missed my point. Angry Birds is a free game that you can also spend a few bucks to buy more of. It's also a simple 2D game that is single player. You also don't have to be online to use it. Minecraft was a major success because it was cheap and easy to make (edit: It was also the first of it's kind and pretty genius on a design level which overcame it's lack of graphics which in turn create a whole new "graphic style"). It's one of those once in a life time type of things. It also didn't have to support servers. People had to do that on their own. Less costs, less elements to design. Less money. But we're talking about graphics though.

Your second point, it still expensive. You still need the same kind of artists creating custom animations and a whole slew of shit. No one is going to put cash into a major project just to shoot for 200-300 thousand box sales (if that many). Devs can't just wip up an MMOG and launch it.

Your third point on sales, both AOC and WAR both sold over a million boxes. Rift sold close to a million. I don't really care about subs afterwards though for my point. What I was saying that you want that initial surge in box sales to help recuperate cash. Selling a super niche game without the quality of life features that are given in current day games will not sell a lot of boxes out of the gate. To get a game with modern graphics like Portal, you need to attempt to shoot for high initial sales. That's just not graphics but systems that surround it as well.

Stop talking about EQ's numbers from 10 years ago. The market is a different place these days. There's not some magic cache of players sitting on the internet in pockets of 100,000s of people just waiting to play and buy the original EQ again. If you're launching an MMO, especially if you're Sony, you want it to make a splash in the marketplace. Neckbeard EQ isn't going to do that for you.

Also, those back in 1998, the internet was mostly populated by Neckbeards. The interwebs has gotten significantly more popular since then.

Draegan_sl said:

Also, those back in 1998, the internet was mostly populated by Neckbeards. The interwebs has gotten significantly more popular since then.

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I completely agree with you and like to support arguments with data. This is the reason why EQN will not look like EQ.
https://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...l=en&ind=false

183 million internet users in 1998 and the most successful MMO in history never got past, what, 10 million subs? A larger bucket is just going to make your drop seem even more insignificant when you don't hit the numbers you want. Might as well make the game your actual fans have been asking for.

Lenas_sl said:

183 million internet users in 1998 and the most successful MMO in history never got past, what, 10 million subs? A larger bucket is just going to make your drop seem even more insignificant when you don't hit the numbers you want. Might as well make the game your actual fans have been asking for.

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I wonder if there is a way we could test that hypothesis (like with a KS or search volume on google trends) and see if people are willing to put money for a 'EQ classic 2' or similar in the same way people have been asking for a Planescape Torment sequel. Any ideas?

Lenas_sl said:

183 million internet users in 1998 and the most successful MMO in history never got past, what, 10 million subs? A larger bucket is just going to make your drop seem even more insignificant when you don't hit the numbers you want. Might as well make the game your actual fans have been asking for.

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Oh you.

Mughal_sl said:

I wonder if there is a way we could test that hypothesis (like with a KS or search volume on google trends) and see if people are willing to put money for a 'EQ classic 2' or similar in the same way people have been asking for a Planescape Torment sequel. Any ideas?

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Lets start a Kickstarter game called RerolledEQ and assuming we don't get sued for copyright/trademark infringement, we can set the goal at $10 million. Then we can hire some devs and try to make a game. Who is in?

edit:
I'll management the production of a video game that caters to all of your niche EQ-lover bullet points as long as someone funds it. Just don't hold me accountable if you don't get a good ROI.

There are a whole lot more neckbeards on the interwebs now than there were in 1998. So in qwerty's defense there probably is a niche market for a EQ remake with modern graphics.

BUT..

You will never convince the money guys to go for it. Like it or not, the cold truth is that investors care about one thing, and that is maximising their profits. Given a choice they will always put their money into the project with the most potential for return. And EQ redone doesn't sell in their eyes.

You can argue that EQ redone with modern graphics would sell extremely well but that is a leap of faith that investors are not willing to take. That may change in the future though. So keep fighting the good fight, some day your dream may come true.

Mughal_sl said:

I wonder if there is a way we could test that hypothesis (like with a KS or search volume on google trends) and see if people are willing to put money for a 'EQ classic 2' or similar in the same way people have been asking for a Planescape Torment sequel. Any ideas?

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I wonder if there is a way to find out the numbers registered on the Sigil forums. Before it got watered down to what it is today I remember the forums being super active. It's only when they were forced to cut it's fucking nuts off because Microsoft wanted WOW numbers that people started to leave.

I honestly think that Vanguard, in it's initial version would have held steady between 600 and 800k subs consistently.

Grim1_sl said:

There are a whole lot more neckbeards on the interwebs now than there were in 1998. So in qwerty's defense there probably is a niche market for a EQ remake with modern graphics.

BUT..

You will never convince the money guys to go for it. Like it or not, the cold truth is that investors care about one thing, and that is maximising their profits. Given a choice they will always put their money into the project with the most potential for return. And EQ redone doesn't sell in their eyes.

You can argue that EQ redone with modern graphics would sell extremely well but that is a leap of faith that investors are not willing to take. That may change in the future though. So keep fighting the good fight, some day your dream may come true.

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The neckbeards of today are nothing like the neckbeards of yesteryear. The majority of neckbeards of today's age grew up on Looking for Dungeon, Minimaps, and Quest Icons. Neckbeards today are those kids who wear red shirts and ask Furor why some lore character can't fuck an orc or something.

Zeus_sl said:

I honestly think that Vanguard, in it's initial version would have held steady between 600 and 800k subs consistently.

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And SWTOR would probably shoulda woulda settled steady at 2.3 million subs.

Zeus_sl said:

I honestly think that Vanguard, in it's initial version would have held steady between 600 and 800k subs consistently.

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Vanguard lacked distribution and promotion (probably because of the unpolished state of the game but more probably due to the fact that it has been a sore point of SOE until recently)

Draegan_sl said:

The neckbeards of today are nothing like the neckbeards of yesteryear. The majority of neckbeards of today's age grew up on Looking for Dungeon, Minimaps, and Quest Icons. Neckbeards today are those kids who wear red shirts and ask Furor why some lore character can't fuck an orc or something.

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Lol, true. But given the humoungous size of the internet population now, you still have young neckbeards willing to play EQ1 with modern graphics in huge numbers. But it is still too niche a market to ever convince the money guys to go for it.

There is only 2 ways I see EQ1 being redone:

1.Kickstarter. I'm sure a sure a well done project that claims to be the spititual successor of EQ1 but without infringing on Sony's copyrights would get tons of money. Whether or not it ever actually saw the light of day is another issue. I'm still not convinced Kickstarter is much more than a scam for most projects.

2.Wait for the tech to be more widely available.Eventually, the database / server tech / animation tech, etc. etc will be much more modular and easy to implement with fewer people. Therefore mmo's will be cheaper to produce and a wider variety of niche games will become possible. That isn't true now or for the foreseeable future, but it will be.