EQ Never

Draegan_sl said:

Solid argument buddy. Next up, you can begin to argue against global warming because it snows a lot in your neighborhood.

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Are you seriously equating market research with science? Lol.

All you have to do is look at history to know that market research is just another word for maintaining the status quo. And yet history has shown that everyone from Ford to Jobs and beyond who had a "vision" that went against conventional wisdom and market research were the biggest successes.

History is my argument. Market research is for bean counters who couldn't have an original thought if their life depended on it.

The next big mmo will break all the rules and the market research guys will be wrong.. again.

Abefroman_sl said:

If people don't care what they look like, then why do so many faggots play female characters?

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If that's the only reason to play a 3rd person game then why even have combat? You could just make a fashion show mmo and make billions (which isn't that bad an idea actually).

The thing is an mmo doesn't HAVE TO BE 3rd person to be successful. Only morons believe that. There is room for a first person only mmo. And I think it would be very successful if done right, especially since it would be so new and different. Yes, you would lose some players who prefer 3rd person games, but that would be more than made up for by the people who prefer first person games.

And the very nature of first person combat would force the devs to create a new mmo experience to make it work. Combat and level design would change the feel of the game drastically from constant same old WoW crap we have now.

Something new is needed in the mmo worldspace. This constant need for people to have another WoW clone is disgusting.

Grim1_sl said:

Well, all you have to do is look at history to know that market research is just another word for maintaining the status quo. And yet history has shown that everyone from Ford to Jobs and beyond who had a "vision" that went against conventional wisdom and market research were the biggest successes.

History is my argument. Market research is for bean counters who couldn't have an original thought if their life depended on it.

The next big mmo will break all the rules and the market research guys will be wrong.. again.

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What the fuck are you talking about? Are you trying to say that Ford and Jobs never used market research to make their products better? Or are you saying bean counters aren't designers so market research is bad?

It's not like there isn't any precedence to go from when it comes to first and third person gaming. It's not like we can actually rationalize the pros and cons of perspective within a game. Yes, first person makes the game more immersive because you are forced to pay more attention to your surroundings. Yes it heightens your sense of place when playing a game. This is completely understood and documented.

There are reasons why MMORPGs have moved towards third person or close-up third person. I'll test your intelligence to see if you can list them.

P.S. Everytime you say WOW bias you sound retarded. Unless you mean everyone who criticizes even a small portion of EQ is WOW biased.

Ford didn't use market research to get his company started. In fact he was laughed at by the people who thought his idea for a car for the masses was failure. And all of Job's best ideas WENT AGAINST market research. Admittedly, some of his failures also went against market research.

It isn't market research that decides or creates good products. It's creative vision and professional execution. And most people, including you, misread what that research is telling them.

If market research is your holy grail then design your game based on it. Oh wait, we already have a million WoW clones, you must be the happiest mmo player alive.

Apple already admitted they use market research and a lot of it. So much in fact that they went to court to have it sealed.

If everyone just copied what the guy did before, we'd be nowhere. Which is kinda what's happened with MMO's since WoW.
You have to go against the grain sometimes. Usually that means lots of resistance until people eventually go "wow, I do kinda like this!".

All we have is a shit ton of retarded MMO's that tried to copy WoWs formula. That's the bottom line. That is what we have today. I really hate to even call them MMO's because they do the genre such a disservice that it's disgusting to think how it has evolved into this mess that I don't even want to play anymore.

The elements that made the genre so special have been stripped out. What we're left with now are single player games with a grouping tool at the end. We're left with hundreds of collect 10 bear ass quests, linear progression, zero exploration/adventuring, zero community and zero social aspects, zero interaction with other players good OR bad. It's a shame what the genre has become.

Market research is very much like polling. The questions you ask determine the result. And the conclusions based on those results are often times faulty.

If you ask people if they hate gun violence then most of them will say yes. But it would be wrong to conclude based on those results that most people hate guns. The same issues arise with market research.

I'm not saying it has no place, and it can be a valuable tool if used correctly. But when people like Draegan or mmo devs use it to justify their need for everything to stay the same, then they are precisely the people who don't use market research correctly. They have drawn the wrong conclusions.

Grim1_sl said:

Ford didn't use market research to get his company started. In fact he was laughed at by the people who thought his idea for a car for the masses was failure. And all of Job's best ideas WENT AGAINST market research. Admittedly, some of his failures also went against market research.

It isn't market research that decides or creates good products. It's creative vision and professional execution. And most people, including you, misread what that research is telling them.

If market research is your holy grail then design your game based on it. Oh wait, we already have a million WoW clones, you must be the happiest mmo player alive.

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Hey retard, when the fuck did I say market research is my holy grail? Jesus fucking christ. Market research is a tool good developers use to augment designs with any product. But please if you're going to start getting obsessed with this argument, go make a thread in the business section. Or you can continue living in your world where games are made by a group of greyhaired neckbeards sit around a dining room table somewhere designing games while drinking mountain dew.

My original point, before you went full retard, is that third person is used for many reasons, and one social aspect of it is because people like seeing their shit. They like looking at their uber sword of killing that shits unicorns every 5 seconds. There or a myriad of other reasons, a major one being spacial awareness that allows developers to do more things with fights etc.

That doesn't mean that first person is terrible game design and should be shot. I'm saying that in a game in the context of traditional, current day MMORPGs that first person mostly doesn't work. You want to make a game that uses First Person then you'll have to make a game around that.

Draegan_sl said:

That doesn't mean that first person is terrible game design and should be shot. I'm saying that in a game in the context of traditional, current day MMORPGs that first person mostly doesn't work. You want to make a game that uses First Person then you'll have to make a game around that.

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Saying it doesn't work has already been proven wrong since EQ1 was a first person game and was very successful. And it has all those traditional mmorpg elements that you claimed force games to be 3rd person. Your WoW centric viewpoint has skewed your ability to think outside of the box, or to even remember that the box you live in is a recent invention, and is an artificial limit of your own making.

You keep saying WOW centric. Stop it. Your problems is that you are filtering everything I say like I play WOW every day and I find that it's the apex of design (even without mention what era of WOW you're talking about since it's drastically changed over the last decade). Stop. This is not a WOW vs. EQ debate. We're simply talking about 3rd and 1st person view and you get frothy like I'm touching your precious.

EQ did it. That's really super. Good for them.

Draegan_sl said:

You keep saying WOW centric. Stop it. Your problems is that you are filtering everything I say like I play WOW every day and I find that it's the apex of design (even without mention what era of WOW you're talking about since it's drastically changed over the last decade). Stop. This is not a WOW vs. EQ debate. We're simply talking about 3rd and 1st person view and you get frothy like I'm touching your precious.

EQ did it. That's really super. Good for them.

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Hah. I say that because it's shorthand for your constant arguments for more of the same. You always say you want something different but in the end everything you argue for is just a copy of what we already have. You argue against anything that changes the mmo space in any significant way and your reasoning is always something similar to the "market research" ploy you used recently.

You have to break the rules to make the rules.

Break some rules, go against the grain, try something truly different or at least support it. The next big thing ALWAYS is new, different and goes against conventional wisdom. The same will be true of the next hugely successful mmo.

Ford was not laughed at for the concept of applying the the assembly line concept to the manufacture of automobiles. He wasn't even alone in doing so. His success is more likely related to being small enough to iterate on poor design until he had a very good design, and mass manufacturing that. i.e. the lack of research cost bigger businesses a lot of money when ultimately unpopular products were unveiled, and with Ford's smaller size he was better able to pivot and fix things after the fact. This is rather demonstrable via the fact that it took going through Models A through S to get to the iconic Model T. And Ford didn't begin applying the assembly line until he had the demand for a good product that necessitated both a large increase in supply and the reduction of cost associated with economies of scale. The ideas that Ford was unique in applying the assembly line to american industry and that he was applying it the moment he opened shop are revisionist history. Ford's cars were actually more expensive than the majority of the competition for many years.

tl;dr Ford made dozens of WoW clones. Evolutionary, not revolutionary, design is how you get investors and turn a profit. Ford wasn't some artsy design faggot, he was a businessman.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you truly that stupid? I don't know how many times I've mentioned shit I'd like to see go away like levels, quest driven content, increasingly larger vertical character progression, linear dungeons, instancing. But you like to be retarded.

But no, keep thinking that I just want more of the same because I think third person is better than first person, I want another WOW (which I haven't played in 5 years). You say that want changes, but all you want to do is go back to a design that is 15 years old. So much for changes and breaking rules.

At this point you're probably trolling me. The joke is on me.

Draegan_sl said:

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you truly that stupid? I don't know how many times I've mentioned shit I'd like to see go away like levels, quest driven content, increasingly larger vertical character progression, linear dungeons, instancing. But you like to be retarded.

But no, keep thinking that I just want more of the same because I think third person is better than first person, I want another WOW (which I haven't played in 5 years). You say that want changes, but all you want to do is go back to a design that is 15 years old. So much for changes and breaking rules.

At this point you're probably trolling me. The joke is on me.

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You do have a reflex reaction against any idea that changes the current mmo paradigm though. And a first person mmo is definitely not the current rule. As for copying EQ1, I would play that game and it would do well. But it wouldn't be the "next big thing" for the reasons copying WoW doesn't work.

And I'm not trolling you, but it probably is a good idea to drop it.

I'll state it. Imo, 1st person has no place in a MMO. Other genres yes.

If people want, tell the developer to make the RP server 1st person only. That way your "immersion" isn't ruined.

Really? First person view has no place in arole playinggame in which you experience the world as a single character? Please explain.

Convo_sl said:

I actually get the same impression Grim gets from some of your posts Drae. Just because a design idea is old doesn't mean it has no place in future games. But tbh I don't really care about 1st or 3rd person views. Lol

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That's what happens when people talk about things in generalities and in how things should "feel" vs. talking about how you can get those end results in terms of actual game mechanics.

Grim said vision lol