EQ Never

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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
lolwat? If I was going to ever ban you for being "emotionally unstable" it would of happened already. Hell dipshits like qwerty would of been banned a million times already. I couldn't care less what people say or think, I just enjoy a good argument. Not sure what makes you think I'm going to ban you randomly. I don't take the internet seriously.

As far as addons, there are two debates here. One is the qwerty argument where he wants to feel like he's in a shiny new world where everything is new and clean and whatever. I was talking to that.

You just want a game where a lot of the mechanics are hidden and there is less focus on numbers and spreedsheets. That's a worthwhile request in a new game, imo.
 
K

Kegz_sl

shitlord
171
0
Draegan_sl said:
less focus on numbers and spreedsheets
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If Smed is as into EVE as the SOE devs claim he is then we're getting exactly that, numbers and spreadsheets. Maybe they can go overboard on the numbers, percentages, modifiers get some statisticians and programmers together and make the algo so difficult to guess that making a reliable parser will be difficult, then have them change up the algo regularly so stats arent as static as you believe them to be... essentially make parsing a job.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I would hope that people who make games are into numbers and spreadsheets. I honestly don't care about parsing, but I prefer games where I can do it. I just hate games that take it overboard that design encounters based on hard dps numbers with hard fails.

Insta-wipe if you don't do X dps because of an enrage timer. Meh. Simple and boring design in my opinion in if makes up the majority of your encounter design. Simple gatekeeper fights are fight to be DPS races if you are pacing content.

Anyway tangent. Parsers don't kill games anyway. There is just a group of players out there than love playing their character, their way, and don't want to hear differently from other people. They tend to get offended when they say you shit sucks because your damage is a 3rd of what it should be.

But in a game based on numbers and stats, you have to design it around something. Until we get an MMORPG where skill shots matter (essentially FPS like Mount and Blade) you're going to have to design around numbers. And since devs usually suck at giving players all the tools they need, or tooltips are never always perfect, or things are bugged, it's impossible for players to design builds or playstyles at face value of the UI.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
Draegan_sl said:
I don't take the internet seriously.
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Just wait until your first NSA request comes in...
You just want a game where a lot of the mechanics are hidden and there is less focus on numbers and spreedsheets. That's a worthwhile request in a new game, imo.
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BNAf6I4CIAA4thi.jpg


EQN is 2D Minecraft - otherwise known as Microsoft Paint #itsafuckingjoke from @Rosierap's twitter feed. This is the eqnext team (minus Butler and a few others) - methinks they need people.
 
Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,715
19,383
tad10_sl said:
Just wait until your first NSA request comes in...


BNAf6I4CIAA4thi.jpg


EQN is 2D Minecraft - otherwise known as Microsoft Paint #itsafuckingjoke from @Rosierap's twitter feed. This is the eqnext team (minus Butler and a few others) - methinks they need people.
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I dont know, I was reading history of something and got into the dev teams of things like FF4 - Zelda Link to the Past etc etc and they had teams smaller than that sometimes.

If each one of them come to work each day and work and dont "play with the 'googleed' work area" aka do jack shit while "your creative juices are flowing!" - have a good team mentality and repore and back and forth conversations can happen from the peasant position to the higher ups- the game will be better than any lets throw $$ and people at it type game dev.
 
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rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
Torrid_sl said:
In my guild, we were parsing damage from the early days. Not much in classic, but in Kunark we parsed enough to know that discing melee were outdamaging wizards even on 32k hp dragons. Of course in Velious using the bane spells, it was easy enough to count the number of spells that landed and multiply it by 2,000. Often melee still outdamaged the wizards even with the bane spells, and crushed lure using wizards. Casters got a significant boost in Luclin, but even in PoP a well geared rogue would beat a wizard on low ac gods. This stuff influenced our recruiting decisions.

I still have some of my old logs, including my Velious era mist panther logs. I recall Kruegen parsing on that mob and getting different results than mine which I attributed to the samples being too short. Stats in EQ were so subtle that you needed a lot of data to determine anything with a degree of certainty. I recall a mob in Shadowhaven that couldn't be killed or attack back that we used to parse on. Also the underwater frog in Lake Rathe that was added in Ykesha I believe. I would autoattack overnight on those; 8+ hour logs. I could tell you my exact procs per minute. People used to give me their login info so I could log and parse for them.

I have something of a dichotomy on this issue in that, if I were to make a game, I would hide as much of the math as possible-- including damage numbers of all spells and melee hits, stat points, even hit points. I would definitely want my game to feel like a world to immerse yourself in rather than plugging stats into spreadsheets to figure out the best min/max gear; if for no other reason than to be different from every other game out there. This also allows for some new gameplay. Take healing for example; if you make figuring out who needs to be healed and for how much part of the challenge of the game, it lets you make combat slower (as opposed to the current trend of tanks dying in 3 seconds) without trivializing it. It would also make healing more entertaining as you would be looking at the battle instead of hit point meters.

However parsing the numbers is how you discover balance issues in games. For years in EQ, I would get shit from a lot of people who refused to believe me when I said that warriors were outdamaging wizards. Even up to PoP, I would 2 box both classes in an exp group scenario, post the data, and some idiot FoH wizard would ridicule me and post his own log with his melee spending more time with autoattack off than on, and most of the delusional wizards on Graffe would take his side because he had the FoH tag and they didn't want to believe their 5 year old characters still sucked dick in single target killing exp grinds. You can't trust the #1 uber guild, and you certainly can't trust the developers. Hard objective data is necessary.

Btw, they added spell damage to third party logs sometime in PoP I believe. I still have many logs from that era with spell damage in them.

Also, regarding third person cameras, I used third person cameras a lot in EQ simply because of the advantages they gave. I would meditate in the middle of roaming mobs and move away from mobs coming at me from behind as I could see in all directions in some camera views; I bet it looked like showeqing to people who saw me doing that. I would also agree that forcing the game in first person adds to the immersion and challenge. Shame no devs have the balls nowadays to do something like that.
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+fucking 1 bro. The people the don't like parsers or numbers being showed on the PLAYER side are the ones that can't figure out how to put up the numbers, or refuse to believe that someone else is doing 2x the #'s as they are. We used to have to send our combat logs to our guild site to be reviewed to see who was doing what. What needs to happen is the encounters need to be more of a encounter that takes support classes that don't put up the #'s to be equally as important. If you have enrage timers and shit you have no choice but to max dps. Theres nothing to argue about it. Its the encounters that the games are making that are forcing players to figure out what is causing them to not fail. Like I said if you have someone macro spamming and someone just screwing around doing a couple spells here and there and running around it makes a huge difference. If you have ever been a guild leader you know how it is to have people messaging you wanting to go on the raid but you know they arn't as good as a couple other people you have but you want to keep them around in case sometime those other people can't show up. It sucks, the whole system promotes having to know #'s and plan accordingly thats just how it works.
 
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rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
I remember plenty of times on my monk in raids I would have to switch to staff (that one that rooted fools w the effect that pwnd!) because my dual wield would pull agro off the tank and kill everyone. So you had to "manage" dps not max dps.
 
Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,715
19,383
Also.... high number raids please... ohhh 10man! or 15man fuck 25man aint a epic giant raid... 42 barely felt large and epic for me in classic wow... 72 is where its at yo
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Parsers helped me learn early on in Rift that some classes(souls) were just fucked up! Anyway, they suck when it comes to guilds using them to weed people out but lets be honest.. only the hardcore guilds do that shit. I personally don't have a whole lot of fun running in those guilds anymore. I wish there was a way for the encounter to scale it's difficulty based on the amount of people there.. starting as low as 20 or 40 people. I enjoyed the 40+ man stuff the most..
 
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rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
I'd be totally down to see 72man raids come back lol. The carnage is crzy the only thing that sucks is rolling against like 25 people, hope your dice are hot baby! I think they need to bring back raid mobs turning around raping too high of dps and killing the raids. That would make #'s unimportant again and it would be more about survivability and including everyone rather than picking the highest dpsers. Honestly to me it feels much more epic to have like 100 people banging out a dragon that took hours of creeping through seb climbing through cliffs and just felt like an epic adventure to get to than zoning into an instance with 10man and fighting something that just made you do the same thing over and over until it was dead.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
rolx_sl said:
I'd be totally down to see 72man raids come back lol. The carnage is crzy the only thing that sucks is rolling against like 25 people, hope your dice are hot baby! I think they need to bring back raid mobs turning around raping too high of dps and killing the raids. That would make #'s unimportant again and it would be more about survivability and including everyone rather than picking the highest dpsers. Honestly to me it feels much more epic to have like 100 people banging out a dragon that took hours of creeping through seb climbing through cliffs and just felt like an epic adventure to get to than zoning into an instance with 10man and fighting something that just made you do the same thing over and over until it was dead.
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I don't see how they can't take some of those old bosses and just inject them with some good old roids and put them in EQN. I'm kind of hoping that's the route they go. At least make some of them group content. EQN is actually a pretty easy game to make if you think about it. They have so much to borrow from. The world/NPCS are there. It's the adventuring/combat stuff they need to wow with.
 
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rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
Convo_sl said:
Parsers helped me learn early on in Rift that some classes(souls) were just fucked up! Anyway, they suck when it comes to guilds using them to weed people out but lets be honest.. only the hardcore guilds do that shit. I personally don't have a whole lot of fun running in those guilds anymore. I wish there was a way for the encounter to scale it's difficulty based on the amount of people there.. starting as low as 20 or 40 people. I enjoyed the 40+ man stuff the most..
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They would have to make the mobs drop shitton of loot. Would you rather go with 20 ppl kill the mob regularly, loot counsil it and be happy. Or go with 75 people have a hard as fuck encounter because of extras and then have to roll against all those other people would be crap. So who knows. Maybe they could make like golden unicorn loot drop off 72+ encounter mobs and have the 20+ mobs dropping purps.
 
Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,715
19,383
the mechanic of controlling agro is dead and meaningless if you have an agro guage that you can just see "oh I am almost #1, let me not click a cool down for a moment....then go back to my pattern"

Think of it like D&D - the things that happen behind the DM partition and are in the DM book only etc are that way for a reason- when you lift the veil you get a very dull experiance once the "wow I know everything!" neo and kungfu moment passes... the hidden rolls, casts, etc etc that are done behind the wall are what make a challange in MMOs etc... WoW took ALL of that away, and that is what people think is the norm...

If EQN is just going for $$$$$$$$ then it will suck, if it goes to try and make a legendary game that will last as long as EQ1 has lasted then they will take the "small market" share that lasts 10 years over the large market share that lasts...what...how long did Rift see super subs? TOR? how long? Conan? lol what...a month...two months?
 
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rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
Convo_sl said:
I don't see how they can't take some of those old bosses and just inject them with some good old roids and put them in EQN. I'm kind of hoping that's the route they go. At least make some of them group content. EQN is actually a pretty easy game to make if you think about it. They have so much to borrow from. The world/NPCS are there. It's the adventuring/combat stuff they need to wow with.
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Agreed bro. Thats why I definitely believe the game will be out this year. They already have a huge world that just needs a make over but hopefully there throwing in a bunch of new zones at the same time and changing it up so it wont be carbon copy of eq1, just a resemblance of the game that used to keep people up all night and then set your alarm for 8am to start the raid again, and everyone showed up. I miss the days of looking out my window and going oh fuck is that the sun what time is it. Thats how IMMERSION should be. Not meh been playing this for too long I need a break.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
1,678
149
Draegan_sl said:
lolwat? If I was going to ever ban you for being "emotionally unstable" it would of happened already. Hell dipshits like qwerty would of been banned a million times already. I couldn't care less what people say or think, I just enjoy a good argument. Not sure what makes you think I'm going to ban you randomly. I don't take the internet seriously.

As far as addons, there are two debates here. One is the qwerty argument where he wants to feel like he's in a shiny new world where everything is new and clean and whatever. I was talking to that.

You just want a game where a lot of the mechanics are hidden and there is less focus on numbers and spreedsheets. That's a worthwhile request in a new game, imo.
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Hmm it's not really that I want it new and clean, and I don't mind spreadsheets and numbers, in fact, I like all that nerdy shit. The only thing I hate is that when the UI gets too 'good', it ends up making everything trivial and makes it too easy on the players.

For example you are running around and all harvestable resources are little diamonds on the radar, and quest NPC's appear on there too, one button brings up your dps, etc.. The most heinous thing I ever saw.. was in WoW, when people had a Threat-o-meter which let them know exactly how much aggro they were doing. Stuff like that is pure retardation. People used to cope with that just fine in EQ with none of this shit, just by getting a kind of 'feel' for how much damage they could do. Wizzies or whatever, they knew that you wait for the mob to arrive, say one Mississippi two Mississippi, let the tank hit it a few times, then you could at least start with some small nukes. Wait for it to reach about 60% health and then you could bring out the big guns.

When the UI starts showing people how to play, it makes me want to not play at all, because there is not really any skill left in the game, no way to play intelligently and do well thanks to your experience etc. It just becomes about a reading a dial. DPS high, good. Threat high, bad. Derp.


p.s. And not only is it making things too simple for the player, but it also means that you aren't really in the world any more, you are just playing a glorified UI. You end up spending 90% of your time looking at your UI, the radar map shows you where to go so you don't see any of the actual world to navigate, and in combat you are just looking at dials, floating numbers, floating feedback like "RESIST!", and hitting reactive abilities at the right time - whether that's a combo in AoC or a Counterspell in Vanguard or whatever else.

I don't mind all that stuff happening in your combat pane of your chat box, I just don't want it being on the screen, because I think it would be far more enjoyable, challenging, and immersive for the player, if they are actually watching the mob throwing punches etc.
 
R

rolx_sl

shitlord
561
0
qwerty_sl said:
Hmm it's not really that I want it new and clean, and I don't mind spreadsheets and numbers, in fact, I like all that nerdy shit. The only thing I hate is that when the UI gets too 'good', it ends up making everything trivial and makes it too easy on the players.

For example you are running around and all harvestable resources are little diamonds on the radar, and quest NPC's appear on there too, one button brings up your dps, etc.. The most heinous thing I ever saw.. was in WoW, when people had a Threat-o-meter which let them know exactly how much aggro they were doing. Stuff like that is pure retardation. People used to cope with that just fine in EQ with none of this shit, just by getting a kind of 'feel' for how much damage they could do. Wizzies or whatever, they knew that you wait for the mob to arrive, say one Mississippi two Mississippi, let the tank hit it a few times, then you could at least start with some small nukes. Wait for it to reach about 60% health and then you could bring out the big guns.

When the UI starts showing people how to play, it makes me want to not play at all, because there is not really any skill left in the game, no way to play intelligently and do well thanks to your experience etc. It just becomes about a reading a dial. DPS high, good. Threat high, bad. Derp.


p.s. And not only is it making things too simple for the player, but it also means that you aren't really in the world any more, you are just playing a glorified UI. You end up spending 90% of your time looking at your UI, the radar map shows you where to go so you don't see any of the actual world to navigate, and in combat you are just looking at dials, floating numbers, floating feedback like "RESIST!", and hitting reactive abilities at the right time - whether that's a combo in AoC or a Counterspell in Vanguard or whatever else.

I don't mind all that stuff happening in your combat pane of your chat box, I just don't want it being on the screen, because I think it would be far more enjoyable, challenging, and immersive for the player, if they are actually watching the mob throwing punches etc.
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Those are UI mods and addons. Everyone ran threat meters in wow. Allowing mods and addons in is just an easy way for devs to not have to update their UI. Its like the same version of player made quests and dungeon. This is the new trend in games, just let the players make their own shit. Thanks Never winter for letting me get 40 levels in 2 hours for making my own 1000 mobs in a box level. Is it bad to be in the highest tear dunegon before open beta is even close to over lol? Point of the story is for the devs to keep everything in moderation. UI mods, don't allow that shit. Customizable UI yes, moving hot bars, adding hot bars that stuff.
 
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