EQ Never

Mughal

Bronze Knight of the Realm
279
39
Thats sad, BRD was one of my favorite parts of WoW. I went back and played recently, and most of the LFD's I did were just like, an L-shaped line you walked through and killed 3 minibosses. That is just terrible. I want really elaborate dungeons where getting around is an accomplishment. I *still* feel lost when I go deep enough into runnyeye or befallen, and I love that feeling.
You can still do it, just now simply they do not force people to run that thing all at once and players choose not to do it on LFR. You are always welcome to go on /trade and find a group to do it. Same as installing a mod that removes your minimap.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
You can still do it, just now simply they do not force people to run that thing all at once and players choose not to do it on LFR. You are always welcome to go on /trade and find a group to do it. Same as installing a mod that removes your minimap.
I don't remember ever running BRD all at once - I do remember jumping off the bridge or wtf to the lava river to cut the time in half to whatever the hell we were going to on the bottom.

As for the minimap - I never had a problem with a minimap. I do with modern in-game radarmaps that show everything then you end up just looking at the radar instead of the world.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I've run all of BRD. It takes forever. And yes, you can still do it if you want to go zone in normally.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,313
2,420
I've ran all of BRD at "once", which was really like a 5-6hours experience, doing all the quests in there. A lot of the areas were simply completely worthless in terms of loot and were just there for quests. Pretty much half the bosses in there had a single blue in their loot table(that they didn't drop everytime) and were simply there as quest mobs. That's one of the issues with BRD, first it was 45-52 so the lvl spread was too big, second the rewards were shitty, third it wasn't endgame either so most people didn't need to run it. It would have done a pretty cool non instanced area but as a 5man dungeon it was kinda shitty especially since you couldn't "save" to start again the day after with your group and shit like that, you had to reclear everything and stuff. It was simply too big to explore decently without a static group and since it wasn't at cap it was likely people would outlvl it before completing it too if they just quested somewhere else while waiting for their friends to connect the day after.

Stratholme at least was level cap and had a ton of good loot. While most people picked one of the 2 wings to clear and rarely cleared both or did the shit in the middle with the mailboxes, you could do both for fairly good rewards and it was clear what to do and shit. That's why in terms of game design I think Stratholme was a ton better than BRD. BRD only advantage was the crazy level design, with the multiple levels and multiple shortcuts, you could go from one place to another very quickly if you could visualize the dungeon entirely and know that dropping down a certain place brings you to another. Other than that though it was a failure.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
i loved BRD, the first time. after that, like every other part of WoW, i fucking hated it. that's the reason why i absolutely hate instances that have to be run from beginning to end like in WoW. i liked dead mines, i liked gnomer, i liked SM, but only the first time i did them. after that, i would rather smash my dick with a hammer than run them multiple times. that's why i much prefer EQ's method of dungeon crawling where you just camp a certain area and hang out for a bit and then leave whenever you want. i don't have to run seb from beginning to end for 7 hours straight like BRD; i could stay for a few hours, or several, but i never had to worry about finishing it.
 

kitsune

Golden Knight of the Realm
628
42
The occasional high level mob in a low zone adds some flavor, IMO. Keeps you on your toes.
Son of Arugal wandering around in Silverpine Forest was an excellent way to have you constantly look over your shoulder, which added to the zone's early eerie feeling, so I will have to agree. I like the idea of having roaming 'tougher' monsters as well that require larger groups to take down. I mean, if raiding is to remain in games, why can't we have some raid bosses at level 15 that gives for example a large amount of experience besides some nice loot?
 

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
I've ran all of BRD at "once", which was really like a 5-6hours experience, doing all the quests in there. A lot of the areas were simply completely worthless in terms of loot and were just there for quests. Pretty much half the bosses in there had a single blue in their loot table(that they didn't drop everytime) and were simply there as quest mobs. That's one of the issues with BRD, first it was 45-52 so the lvl spread was too big, second the rewards were shitty, third it wasn't endgame either so most people didn't need to run it. It would have done a pretty cool non instanced area but as a 5man dungeon it was kinda shitty especially since you couldn't "save" to start again the day after with your group and shit like that, you had to reclear everything and stuff. It was simply too big to explore decently without a static group and since it wasn't at cap it was likely people would outlvl it before completing it too if they just quested somewhere else while waiting for their friends to connect the day after.

Stratholme at least was level cap and had a ton of good loot. While most people picked one of the 2 wings to clear and rarely cleared both or did the shit in the middle with the mailboxes, you could do both for fairly good rewards and it was clear what to do and shit. That's why in terms of game design I think Stratholme was a ton better than BRD. BRD only advantage was the crazy level design, with the multiple levels and multiple shortcuts, you could go from one place to another very quickly if you could visualize the dungeon entirely and know that dropping down a certain place brings you to another. Other than that though it was a failure.
The issue is always the same, doesn't matter how you paint it: people will only do something that rewards them appropriately, most people, that is. Adventuring is not a reward in itself for the vast majority of the playerbase.

BRD had some issues, of which I think the level spread (48-58 as I remember it, may be wrong) was the biggest and the fact it took a couple evenings picking up all the quests, but the whole blackrock mountain design, brd, lbrs, ubrs, mc, bwl, was freaking awesome, it had a meaning and was a focal point in the world, it was tied deeply into the lore (for those who knew something about it) and it was also pretty fun in terms of exploration, content and boss mechanics (for the era).

BRD had stuff like the bank vaults, the Lyceum, ecc which were an example of good and fun design for adventurers, of course much less so for the token addicted players that must speed run everything they do in every game.

WoW vanilla was nice in terms of dungeon design, not amazing, but nice. I still think EQ2 was better in terms of layouts and exploration and general "feeling", from the city sewers to Stormhold which was amazing, to Nektropos Castle, Solusek Eye, etc.
Also, meanwhile TBC made every dungeon a hallway with 3 rooms, Desert of Flame, shitty xpack as it was, made dungeons still good (Silent City, Poet's Palace, etc. almost all of them were quite good imo). That alone made EQ2 worth playing for quite a while, even with crappy spammy combat and bland classes.
 

Mughal

Bronze Knight of the Realm
279
39
Son of Arugal wandering around in Silverpine Forest was an excellent way to have you constantly look over your shoulder, which added to the zone's early eerie feeling, so I will have to agree. I like the idea of having roaming 'tougher' monsters as well that require larger groups to take down. I mean, if raiding is to remain in games, why can't we have some raid bosses at level 15 that gives for example a large amount of experience besides some nice loot?
I do agree, that was amazing. And yet many players didn't like it. I also remember the in-game event of the undead invasion before the WotLK release. It was nice, it had variety in a sense that a city was no longer a safe place and you would play the role of a ghoul infecting others. And yet some people in my guild hated it because they just wanted to hang out in Orgr to do arenas, like they did every single day. No matter what, you can never please everyone.
 

Zacx_sl

shitlord
77
0
I do believe the real fundamental thing they have to get right is to make a game thatdoes notcater for the player.
Don't make it easier or more 'fun' for the player, don't make it "better".

Create a world, create an idea, create rules with a purpose, and make the player adapt to it.

As much some want to believe it, Allah didn't make this world for us - we just had to deal with it.
 

vGrade

Potato del Grande
1,798
2,812
i loved BRD, the first time. after that, like every other part of WoW, i fucking hated it. that's the reason why i absolutely hate instances that have to be run from beginning to end like in WoW. i liked dead mines, i liked gnomer, i liked SM, but only the first time i did them. after that, i would rather smash my dick with a hammer than run them multiple times. that's why i much prefer EQ's method of dungeon crawling where you just camp a certain area and hang out for a bit and then leave whenever you want. i don't have to run seb from beginning to end for 7 hours straight like BRD; i could stay for a few hours, or several, but i never had to worry about finishing it.
Well said
 

zzeris

The Real Benny Johnson
<Gold Donor>
21,262
93,035
I loved EQ but that doesn't mean camping one spot in a dungeon is the way a modern game should play. It doesn't make sense, it isn't immersive, and it's definitely not active gaming. I love hard to acquire gear and think EQs low rates of return for some items was awesome. That doesn't mean we should go back to the late 90s for inspiration on how to do everything for EQ. I want a dungeon to be at least a one hour adventure. I think it would be such a waste to use Storybricks and then keep the static mob camping of years before. Let areas be camp able but throw in reinforcements after a while. Add a couple mobs in a dungeon every so often. Change the equation a bit. If we want a living world, then why are the mobs just sitting there waiting for us? Why stay static? Why make it so that Hardcore Joe's '5 man' can completely memorize a dungeon while making it irrelevant?

I'm hoping this game delivers because no matter how well Wildstar is made, it still looks too much like WoW. That doesn't mean I won't play it if this doesn't deliver but I'm hoping they knock it out this time at Sony.
 

Phred_sl

shitlord
11
0
I do believe the real fundamental thing they have to get right is to make a game thatdoes notcater for the player.
Don't make it easier or more 'fun' for the player, don't make it "better".

Create a world, create an idea, create rules with a purpose, and make the player adapt to it.

As much some want to believe it, Allah didn't make this world for us - we just had to deal with it.
Did you just seriously compare playing a game with real life? Suck it up doesn't work well as a sales mechanism. Neither does Allah wills it.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
An endless stream of just positive reinforcement and rewards, without any obstacles or challenges, dulls you towards the experience. People either quit because they get bored or keep going through the motions just because. Thart's what WoW has come to.
 

Phred_sl

shitlord
11
0
An endless stream of just positive reinforcement and rewards, without any obstacles or challenges, dulls you towards the experience. People either quit because they get bored or keep going through the motions just because. Thart's what WoW has come to.
I think however most people realize the glory days of getting punched in the dick when you screw up are gone now. Much as many might like them to return they are a tiny drop in the ocean so if you like that style of gaming you're gonna need to play a P99 like game or sit around moaning about the loss of the good old days.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
I think however most people realize the glory days of getting punched in the dick when you screw up are gone now. Much as many might like them to return they are a tiny drop in the ocean so if you like that style of gaming you're gonna need to play a P99 like game or sit around moaning about the loss of the good old days.
I don't really get that vibe at all. Maybe there are just a lot of old EQ fans turning out and being vocal on different forums but I think it's much more than a tiny drop in the ocean.
 

bayr_sl

shitlord
715
0
I think there's a big difference between getting punched in the dick and the instant gratification McWoW experience that so many games have turned to. Day Z, Dota 2, Dark Souls, people are responding well to more challenging games
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
Nah I dont need nor want EQ99. I just find the scales have tipped too far into the other extreme. And most of it because players like it at first and the money shows that. Then the games go where the money is. Then the players grow bored of it and quit, but the damage is done.

I hope some companies realize this and stop this trend without going full retard and making it a permadeath-mud mmo (because obviously, unless its sustainable with 10k subs it will die). Hell even WoW tries to challenge people again but unfortunately removes gear progression as a factor during in the process (scenarios/leaderboards).
 

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
People want a balanced Risk v Reward. The problem with WoW was it became all Reward and no Risk. Thats simply not fun. That is a trained rat going through the maze to get the cheese. The player was asked to put nothing on the line except his or her spare time.

Nobody is advocating perma death. What we DO want is a real penalty for sucking or not knowing what the fuck you are doing. That more than anything creates a community. Makes people accountable for who they are. And yes, the rewards should scale with the scope and risk of the encounter. Nobody is going to make you enter in the dungeon of the "Holy Fuck, how am I going to get my corpse out of there?", but if you want that badass set of pixels bad enough, you will, and youll get a crew of people who know what the fuck they are doing and you can trust.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Nah I dont need nor want EQ99. I just find the scales have tipped too far into the other extreme. And most of it because players like it at first and the money shows that. Then the games go where the money is. Then the players grow bored of it and quit, but the damage is done.

I hope some companies realize this and stop this trend without going full retard and making it a permadeath-mud mmo (because obviously, unless its sustainable with 10k subs it will die). Hell even WoW tries to challenge people again but unfortunately removes gear progression as a factor during in the process (scenarios/leaderboards).
games can be more challenging and punishing if developers learn to offer more solutions within the game. I always use the example of adding a crafter made Rezz item that is single shot. So if you die, you don't need to hope some cleric will run out and rezz you. You can do it yourself but you'll still experience loss because you had to buy that Rezz item which needed rare components so it was pricey, it also benefited the economy which overall benefits the game. There are so many easy solutions that can be solved using the game and not just getting rid of them totally.