tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
- Start date
Greyform
Bronze Knight of the Realm
- 431
- 17
that sounds awful. I could not imagine watching a game being played by my PC vs playing that character myself.
Do you realise how stupid you look saying this shit? You've got no fucken idea what features EQ even has. You really think it's rational to have a go at people that may want EQ Next to be action based combat when
A) Who the fuck died and made you the boss of EQ Next's combat.
B) Who the fuck are you?
C) That's right your just another nobody to SOE that thinks because they played a shit load of EQ they have some insane right to dictate the direction of EQ Next. News flash YOU DON'T. Everyone here has just as much right to wish for features in EQ as the next guy. Even people that have never played the franchise.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
Lol. Sure buddy. So I guess every time there's a cutscene in WoW you flipout?
------------
Anyway, it's amazing how many people in the EQN thread never appear to have actually played EQ.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
It's completely rational given that EQ wasn't an action based RPG.
Not if what they want is an action-based RPG.
- 4,244
- 5,579
So basically there's several topics going at once which are somewhat blurred:
Topic 1: the "I want slow paced, downtime driven, auto-attack based combat because: creates community/social interaction/simpler gameplay and i'm old/dont like console style gaming/DDR/etc". This is fine actually. If they truly want an Eve Like open world/sandbox you want the simpler combat of original EQ. This isn't a bad thing btw. I've been playing Eve since 2006, and Eve is about the only game on the market with combat nearly as simplistic as original EQ (outside of a few rose-colored glasses nostalgia-blinded posters here, the majority of players realize EQ combat was incredibly simple, which is fine, allowed you to chit chat the night away while waiting for the 20-28 minute mob respawns in basic dungeon camps)
The other side of the coin is you have to accept that PVE will not be challenging or engaging in any real, meaningful way. This is a truth of meaningful sandbox interaction (read: PVP). You really can't have both. an EQN Eve clone is basically Fansy the bard everywhere, every raid, training your shit. Except you can simply kill him instead of having him ruin your day every day. The only way to design engaging PVE fights in an Eve like world is by instancing PVE, which immediately invalidates all effort put in to making an Eve clone in the first place. So PVE is simple and the challenge/content of the game is about the competition/interaction between player groups for the limited resources of the game world. This is the player controlled/generated content that Smed's looking for cus having the developers create all content for players to chew through is a losing battle that he's tired of fighting.
Topic 2: I want combat to be challenging/engaging again, but I don't want the "challenge" to come from interacting with my UI, DDR style hotbar mouse clicking bullshit, "rotations" either CD based (like WoW) or animation time based (like CoH/V), etc. As games trended away from the simplistic auto-attack combat they became more complex but in the wrong ways, this is credited as starting with WoW but most MMOs released in 2000-2003 were like this as well. Recently MMOs have been trending towards more action-rpg oriented combat systems and less hotbar "WoW" style combat, ie games like Tera, TSW, Neverwinter, Wildstar, etc. Less abilities so easier keybindings, more movement based, telegraphed aoes, etc. Of those I personally think Neverwinter does it best as they went full Action-RPG (it plays more like a FPS than your standard fantasy MMO) which allows the challenge to the game to be more about tactics/movement/twitch and less about dps/hps and gear checks, which is ultimately what every other MMO fight (outside a few gimmick bosses) breaks down to being about no matter how much you try to disguise it with DDR and UI battle combat mini-games.
Again, focusing on cool/fun/engaging combat is cool too. But the only way to have this is via instanced PVE dungeons/encounters/etc. Or tagging/flagging mobs/encounters to the first group that engages, or limiting player caps on zones, or some other manner to allow designed, scripted encounters to be tuned to a set # of players.
So basically pick one. Open world/pvp/sandbox with meaningful community interaction/politics/etc or clever/fun engaging PVE content. You can't have both. Or atleast you shouldn't expect EQN to reveal the magic formula for both existing in the same game.
I like both styles depending on my mood, so I play Eve for one and Neverwinter for the other.
Topic 1: the "I want slow paced, downtime driven, auto-attack based combat because: creates community/social interaction/simpler gameplay and i'm old/dont like console style gaming/DDR/etc". This is fine actually. If they truly want an Eve Like open world/sandbox you want the simpler combat of original EQ. This isn't a bad thing btw. I've been playing Eve since 2006, and Eve is about the only game on the market with combat nearly as simplistic as original EQ (outside of a few rose-colored glasses nostalgia-blinded posters here, the majority of players realize EQ combat was incredibly simple, which is fine, allowed you to chit chat the night away while waiting for the 20-28 minute mob respawns in basic dungeon camps)
The other side of the coin is you have to accept that PVE will not be challenging or engaging in any real, meaningful way. This is a truth of meaningful sandbox interaction (read: PVP). You really can't have both. an EQN Eve clone is basically Fansy the bard everywhere, every raid, training your shit. Except you can simply kill him instead of having him ruin your day every day. The only way to design engaging PVE fights in an Eve like world is by instancing PVE, which immediately invalidates all effort put in to making an Eve clone in the first place. So PVE is simple and the challenge/content of the game is about the competition/interaction between player groups for the limited resources of the game world. This is the player controlled/generated content that Smed's looking for cus having the developers create all content for players to chew through is a losing battle that he's tired of fighting.
Topic 2: I want combat to be challenging/engaging again, but I don't want the "challenge" to come from interacting with my UI, DDR style hotbar mouse clicking bullshit, "rotations" either CD based (like WoW) or animation time based (like CoH/V), etc. As games trended away from the simplistic auto-attack combat they became more complex but in the wrong ways, this is credited as starting with WoW but most MMOs released in 2000-2003 were like this as well. Recently MMOs have been trending towards more action-rpg oriented combat systems and less hotbar "WoW" style combat, ie games like Tera, TSW, Neverwinter, Wildstar, etc. Less abilities so easier keybindings, more movement based, telegraphed aoes, etc. Of those I personally think Neverwinter does it best as they went full Action-RPG (it plays more like a FPS than your standard fantasy MMO) which allows the challenge to the game to be more about tactics/movement/twitch and less about dps/hps and gear checks, which is ultimately what every other MMO fight (outside a few gimmick bosses) breaks down to being about no matter how much you try to disguise it with DDR and UI battle combat mini-games.
Again, focusing on cool/fun/engaging combat is cool too. But the only way to have this is via instanced PVE dungeons/encounters/etc. Or tagging/flagging mobs/encounters to the first group that engages, or limiting player caps on zones, or some other manner to allow designed, scripted encounters to be tuned to a set # of players.
So basically pick one. Open world/pvp/sandbox with meaningful community interaction/politics/etc or clever/fun engaging PVE content. You can't have both. Or atleast you shouldn't expect EQN to reveal the magic formula for both existing in the same game.
I like both styles depending on my mood, so I play Eve for one and Neverwinter for the other.
I've been playing MMO's since UO and I want action based combat. So who's 'our' do you speak for?
Nirgon
Log Wizard
- 15,064
- 24,765
Rather limited character progression in these games, wouldn't you say
Turning auto attack on and off was fine
Byr
Potato del Grande
- 3,954
- 5,638
wait, you arnt? sorry, i figured you were just trolling when you started talking about going out of your way to find a mob that you can kill with auto attacks so you could go to the fridge to grab a beer.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
- 11,859
- 8,265
Now, I'm not an EQ dev or anything... but do you think dungeon camps were an intended mechanic put in the game by Verant? I highly doubt it. They arose based on the simple need for advancement. It was the only (efficient) way to level up. I would put money down on the original intent of all EQ dungeons was that they would be crawled through over the course of a gaming session.
This would mean EQ's entire xp system was a sort of emergent gameplay. To call any game that doesn't include this gameplay a 'WoW clone' is pretty unfair. For example, nobody in Vanguard would dream of setting up camp in a room. Why would they? There are dozens of dungeons, and each dungeon is laden with quests. It would be inefficient to camp just one area for very long due to just how much level appropriate content there is available; content that rewards you the first time you complete it (quests). Vanguard has auto attack, and yet dungeon runs are very mobile, and they are totally uninstanced. Do people hit max level and then camp rare spawns for loot? Of course. But levelling content is ALWAYS done as a crawl. Respawn time was even similar in most cases (14-20 mins)
EQNext could easily have auto attack AND uninstanced 'crawl' style dungeons - but only IF the amount of both competing and supporting content is sufficient. Certainly far from being the dreaded 'WoW clone' you warn of.
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,494
- 10,705
No one advocates Progressquest. What we're saying is: if there's no real decision involved in hitting a button during combat (to the point you hit it by reflex or you program a macro to hit it), then that button shouldn't be there. Adding an ability that is used as soon as it comes off cooldown or that the dot is flashing on your UI is not good gameplay, it's a way to generate artificially some "interaction".
So yes, it boils down on what kind of game you're looking for. Are you looking for Whack-a-Mole? where your fingers must twitch as fast as stimuli arrive, to the point where your brain has to disengage from the game or it's going to slow you down, or are you looking for a tactical game where you need to make decisions that require your brain to figure out (quickly, but accurately) what's the best decision (do I use my halve-AC-and-speed now to get more DPS or keep it for when it runs? Is it coming off cooldown before it runs?) Are you a brainy gamer or a twitchy gamer?
(there's nothing wrong with twitchy games, btw. But they DO require you to disengage your higher brain functions. Playing 3D Tetris at skull difficulty requires that your consciousness is completely shut down; if you try to think about pieces as they appear, you lose. You regain awareness when the game ends, but you can't play it while your brain thinks)
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 916
- 48
I personally think GW2 has been a blessing for a few reasons:
- No more 6 hotbars with 12 shittastic skills I have to keep around, 10 keys, all of them selectable pre-combat.
- Reactive combat: it can be improved still, but the good is there. Has to be tuned and balanced here and there (some weapons are so much better than others), there is a large room for expanding the system by just adding a weapon to a class.
- I don't need a healer (and this comes from someone who always loved to play healers).
- I cannot stealth through everything and I have to clear my way into places I want to explore (makes me less lazy, but takes away something... so I'm still torn on this
).- The world is gorgeous with many places to discover: small caves, underwater passages, hidden puzzles, etc.
- It's not WoW-like, which by itself is a godsend, at least it's different and I wanted something different for a long time.
- There is a lot of variety in builds, playing styles, group compositions, etc. unless of course all you want to run is CoF p1 speedruns over and over until your eyes bleed.
- It's very dynamic and soft targeting is a welcome change in my eyes (using your teammates to block attacks is plain awesome, gives a new meaning to the word "train" /trollmode off).
This been said, I don't know why you think there is a lack of flavour, unless you mean a lack of pure roles. I don't shit on pure roles by default (they are still there in GW2, less obvious) as I always liked to play healers and tanks, but surely it's a nice change of pace working as a team, using combo fields, finishers and stuff to speed up things and make them safer.
On the other side, Neverwinter, which I found interesting at the beginning, became less and less appealing to the point I stopped playing it. I can't point the finger on what was wrong, maybe I'll pick it up again and give it another try (still installed!), Control Wizard was decently fun by itself.
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,494
- 10,705
And you'd win, since Brad stated, as early as 2000 or 2001 that they thought people would do it that way.
Of course, without instancing, the problem of crawling was that once you had more than 3 groups in a given dungeon, the odds of finding a named alive when you came around its room started to drop like a stone, so it became better to set up camp, and ensure you'd be there when the local boss spawned.
It's called inexperience.
Caeden
Golden Baronet of the Realm
- 7,763
- 13,044
In reality, this can't be "beaten." Sure, make resources strained all you want, but all you're doing is changing the timing. Then it becomes all about how many APM is entertaining to you. I think WoW is spammy NOW. Not so much back in TBC/Vanilla where unlimited mana didn't exist even for DPS. Lifetap for locks back then was a fucking reality and shit killed you easily and you couldn't just count that healers could spare mana for your dps.
Caeden
Golden Baronet of the Realm
- 7,763
- 13,044
Its hard for me to put in words. Yes, the support abilities did have flavor, but I felt like every class was "ranged weapon, melee weapon, support weapon, etc." Maybe it is roles I'm missing. I may need to go back and play some and refresh what my feelings were. Haven't touched it since...December?I personally think GW2 has been a blessing for a few reasons:
- No more 6 hotbars with 12 shittastic skills I have to keep around, 10 keys, all of them selectable pre-combat.
- Reactive combat: it can be improved still, but the good is there. Has to be tuned and balanced here and there (some weapons are so much better than others), there is a large room for expanding the system by just adding a weapon to a class.
- I don't need a healer (and this comes from someone who always loved to play healers).
- I cannot stealth through everything and I have to clear my way into places I want to explore (makes me less lazy, but takes away something... so I'm still torn on this
- The world is gorgeous with many places to discover: small caves, underwater passages, hidden puzzles, etc.
- It's not WoW-like, which by itself is a godsend, at least it's different and I wanted something different for a long time.
- There is a lot of variety in builds, playing styles, group compositions, etc. unless of course all you want to run is CoF p1 speedruns over and over until your eyes bleed.
- It's very dynamic and soft targeting is a welcome change in my eyes (using your teammates to block attacks is plain awesome, gives a new meaning to the word "train" /trollmode off).
This been said, I don't know why you think there is a lack of flavour, unless you mean a lack of pure roles. I don't shit on pure roles by default (they are still there in GW2, less obvious) as I always liked to play healers and tanks, but surely it's a nice change of pace working as a team, using combo fields, finishers and stuff to speed up things and make them safer.
On the other side, Neverwinter, which I found interesting at the beginning, became less and less appealing to the point I stopped playing it. I can't point the finger on what was wrong, maybe I'll pick it up again and give it another try (still installed!), Control Wizard was decently fun by itself.
Hah. In that case, you're looking at instancing right in the face for at least a portion of the dungeons. If they're smart, they'll mix the two. I can't wait to hear the outcry if their solution was to instance only the named's room a la ToR's story/mission instances.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,394
- 287
I played EQ for years and would like the design pendulum to swing back in that direction. But what you've been spouting on the last few pages is over the top exaggerated to the point of becoming comical. Either we played different EQs or you are talking about killing an orc pawn at level 25 (not the more dangerous "a orc pawn" mind you). Single pulling a low blue con and then going to the fridge worked in Overthere? Well it works just the same in the barrens, which have about the same player competence level too. And going to walk the dog in the middle of a group or raid was just as possible in WoW or any other game as it was in EQ, and the consequences depended on the people you played with. In both games some were cool with it, some left you to die when they cleared deeper, and some flat out kicked you.
And cut the obsession with autoattack (I am for autoattack for the record, not having it in the few weeks I played TOR was very annoying). I rarely used autoattack in EQ and so did several other classes, yet we experienced the game just the same as your non-tanking "afk dont move the mob" warrior. Just the same, I played all of EQ with a limited action bar of 8 spells, so that feature is nothing new either. I do agree that having to chain-spam the same 2-3 abilities ad nauseum isnt engaging gameplay, but then again most casters in EQ did it just that same as they do in WoW.
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 916
- 48
My next birthday is the 40th, so I'm not your average console addicted, 30 minutes MC dungeon or whatever the fuck you want to call it, but seriously, you're advocating for a game that doesn't need to be played and isn't interactive in the least. I don't need to fill every global cooldown, but seriously... auto attack and walk away? That's a bit too much, it's pretty much saying that this game is so easy a monkey flinging poo on the keyboard could beat it, while watching TV too.
I want a challenge, not nerve-wracking, soul destroying, balls to the walls action even for crafting, mind you, but not even autoattacking while going to the fridge. Also how many fucking beers do you drink while playing? Can't you just pick it up between one fight and the next? Do you need to take your car and drive an hour to get to the fridge? Sometimes it's fun following you all folks: you want combat so engaging you can't even walk away from your keyboard during downtime, yet you want to be able to walk away duringcombatto get your drink?
I don't want 30 minutes sessions either, I work and have a family and do sports regularly (and religiously at that), but I can set aside a couple hours in the late night to play (even 3-4 hours), but I'd rather not need 28 hours straight to camp something or 6 hours to get to the bottom of a dungeon (with a decent group, that is).
You know why I like GW2? Because the difference between a great group a shitty group are huge, immensely huge. It's not the perfect game, but it keeps me entertained and is worth all the money it costed.
I hope EQ next will be something even better, why not? I have fond memories of Norrath, having played EQ and EQ2 extensively, will certainly like to walk the lands once again.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,394
- 287
I personally think GW2 has been a blessing for a few reasons:
- No more 6 hotbars with 12 shittastic skills I have to keep around, 10 keys, all of them selectable pre-combat.
- Reactive combat: it can be improved still, but the good is there. Has to be tuned and balanced here and there (some weapons are so much better than others), there is a large room for expanding the system by just adding a weapon to a class.
- I don't need a healer (and this comes from someone who always loved to play healers).
- I cannot stealth through everything and I have to clear my way into places I want to explore (makes me less lazy, but takes away something... so I'm still torn on this
- The world is gorgeous with many places to discover: small caves, underwater passages, hidden puzzles, etc.
- It's not WoW-like, which by itself is a godsend, at least it's different and I wanted something different for a long time.
- There is a lot of variety in builds, playing styles, group compositions, etc. unless of course all you want to run is CoF p1 speedruns over and over until your eyes bleed.
- It's very dynamic and soft targeting is a welcome change in my eyes (using your teammates to block attacks is plain awesome, gives a new meaning to the word "train" /trollmode off).
This been said, I don't know why you think there is a lack of flavour, unless you mean a lack of pure roles. I don't shit on pure roles by default (they are still there in GW2, less obvious) as I always liked to play healers and tanks, but surely it's a nice change of pace working as a team, using combo fields, finishers and stuff to speed up things and make them safer.
On the other side, Neverwinter, which I found interesting at the beginning, became less and less appealing to the point I stopped playing it. I can't point the finger on what was wrong, maybe I'll pick it up again and give it another try (still installed!), Control Wizard was decently fun by itself.
I think GW2 tried too much to remove tanking and healing as a role. Or rather, failed to truly allow their new trinity of dps, support and control to shine. The bane of PVP* means there are little actual control abilities, and alot of support is easily slotted in even the most offensive build. At the same time, you dont have mobs that constantly give their entire room quickness or 50% mitigation buffs, you dont have slows, its fairly bland really. I like the idea of a dps/control/support trinity moreso then the strict tank/heal version because you have more wiggle room for unusual groups. Its just a mediocre implementation in that regard in GW2.
Anyway GW2 is heading to the 1 year anniversary, I hope they come out with some actual long term plans soonish. So far they have struggled to find their footing after players took 6 weeks to complete content that was meant for 6+ months.
Soft-targeting, love it. It just adds a layer of immersion of that bolt actually hits something in its path. I'd actually like the game to come with
*Then again itwas meant to be a PVP game... seems that kinda failed so far after the initial fun in WvW, they mostly retain players with PVE it seems.
Re GW2 weapons: Yea many of them are a bit tame, probably a PVP issue again. I hope they allow you to learn more weapon skills eventually and customize the first 5 slots a bit, giving each weapon like 2 "roles" to emphasize.
Given the current status quo between fully instanced and the whole dungeon being camped out of the game is successful, I could live with a huge un-instanced dungeon ala sebilis then having several instances attached that are of the Mcdungeon variety. Like once you reach the end of the crypt there are three more stairs each into another small crypt and thats instanced, there's an underwater instanced cavern right before Trak after juggs, etc. The main advantage to me is that something like that allows for having interesting scripted stuff in those 2-3 corridors + room that wouldnt work as well in the completely open dungeon areas.
I was thinking about how much I like the GW2 mini-dungeons like the froglok cave in caledon forest, and thinking back EQ didnt really have many "small" dungeons (say the size of just crushbone castle/courtyard), it was either mostly open land or straight up dungeon zone. Maybe it was a technical limit back then, but I hope we get alot more of that. Small and medium caves or collapsed watch towers and so on that would be the size of one "camp" back then. You can add alot of points of interest to large zones that way that are worth visiting and exploring/camping. Especially so if they come with some old-school traps stuff.