EQ Never

Quaid · Oct 29, 2013

Siddar_sl said:
Just to restate why EQ will never happen again.

There wont be forced grouping ever again because you lose 90% of potential players by having that. EQ could get away with forced grouping because of the semi monopoly it held. Once WoW released that era of gaming was over forever.

You can't have contested content in a game without the forced grouping aspect because of the basic degeneracy of the average MMOG player. If there is no forced grouping then there is no real reputational risk from being a asshole.

Travel and Death timesinks are simply wastes of time that while adding depth to a game will in the end be rejected by players. The only reason I see for having these types of timesinks in a game is to slowly get rid of them over time as a reward for progressing in the game.

This statement was probably correct in recent years, but I think we might be seeing a bit of a backlash.

Games like Camelot Unchained and Black Desert are not following the pattern that you describe.

I think that the MMORPG industry, just like the music industry, is about to see a serious hipster backlash. New funding methods and building tools appear to be reducing barriers to entry, and as we can see in P99 and other small MMORPG communities, it doesn't take many players to create a thriving community. No, they will never dethrone the big boys, but at least some of us may find a new home.

Dandai · Oct 29, 2013

Siddar_sl said:
Travel and Death timesinks are simply wastes of time that while adding depth to a game will in the end be rejected by players. The only reason I see for having these types of timesinks in a game is to slowly get rid of them over time as a reward for progressing in the game.

You've touched on something that I think gets glossed over too often when discussing EQ's death penalty. By the time losing your body would really devastate you, multiple classes had tools available to ensure that anyone who was motivated enough to not lose their body (or experience, for that matter) needn't lose any sleep over it.

Necros could summon (albeit the reagent wasn't inexpensive); rogues could stealth and drag your body; monks could flop around dragging your body - same with SK's; casters had invis which was usually enough unless you were in dead side L Guk.

Anyway, the more the phrase gets repeated that today's players wouldn't tolerate EQ's harsh death penalties, the less I'm believing it. Losingallof your items and having to walk back naked might be over the top. I'm not sure where to strike a happy medium between some classes being almost completely helpless with no gear while others are largely unaffected.

Quaid · Oct 29, 2013

Agreed.

I will say though, the first time leveling a character in EQ, very few of those corpse/xp recovery tools are available (at least cheaply). It's that first play through I think, where death had serious impact (among other factors) that captured many players and allowed them to build a relationship with their characters, the world, and each other.

Jais · Oct 29, 2013

I think some of us would rather play against a game than play a game. I think this is a big distinction between MMO player mindsets. I don't want Candy Crush or Angry Birds. I/some of us want what the shitty hand EQ1 dealt us but with modern graphics and some modern conveniences. I remain cynically hopeful that something along this vein will come to pass but I'm in certain doubt that EQN is that thing.

Quaid · Oct 29, 2013

They've sent so many mixed messages that I'm starting to equate Dave Georgeson to my first high school crush... Mind you, he has way prettier hair.

Lleauaric · Oct 29, 2013

Dahkoht_sl said:
That's got to be a pretty horrific sex life to have if your first was your best.

Lol well.. Probably should have said "most memorable". Not much about it was that great and it was a confusing mess of awkwardness and fumbling, shit I remember wondering if I was in the right hole. (15 yr olds knowledge of a females anatomy is shockingly limited). But I guess in that sense it was a lot like EQ.

shabushabu · Oct 29, 2013

Siddar_sl said:
Just to restate why EQ will never happen again.

You can't have contested content in a game without the forced grouping aspect because of the basic degeneracy of the average MMOG player. If there is no forced grouping then there is no real reputational risk from being a asshole. If there is no downside to being a asshole then contested content just becomes a competition where the biggest asshole wins everytime.

This quote could not be more wrong... EQ2 had contested content through raiding and both solo and group content and from a PVP perspective it was amazing experience. Sure there were your occasional A-holes but pvp was the great equalizer for that ( bounties on players etc ). This also promotes grouping

Vanguard did this right also.

Siddar_sl said:
Just to restate why EQ will never happen again.
Travel and Death timesinks are simply wastes of time that while adding depth to a game will in the end be rejected by players. The only reason I see for having these types of timesinks in a game is to slowly get rid of them over time as a reward for progressing in the game.

Again wrong, there are people out there who like games where death is feared or there is a risk... you know like being at a scary movie ? Gets your blood pumping.

Seriously I think from your posts you just want to play a pez dispenser ( glorified Slot Machine ) game like Neverwinter which is cool, but some folks want something else too.

Cinge · Oct 29, 2013

shabushabu_sl said:
Again wrong, there are people out there who like games where death is feared or there is a risk... you know like being at a scary movie ? Gets your blood pumping.

Yes but how many and is it worth it for developers to even try. Probably not. Closest I can think is EVE but it was only risky because of PVP, but it was made by a small studio and took years to get respectable numbers. Big studios or even medium sized ones won't do it.

Imo there is risk and then there are just stupid time sinks.

shabushabu · Oct 29, 2013

cinge_sl said:
Yes but how many and is it worth it for developers to even try. Probably not. Closest I can think is EVE but it was only risky because of PVP, but it was made by a small studio and took years to get respectable numbers. Big studios or even medium sized ones won't do it.

Imo there is risk and then there are just stupid time sinks.

There is a market gap currently, its not black and white. Once publishers milk the casual crowd and numbers stop climbing ( and they will ) they will have to do something else and I think you will see complexity come back in some ways.

popsicledeath · Oct 29, 2013

Siddar_sl said:
Just to restate why EQ will never happen again.

There wont be forced grouping ever again because you lose 90% of potential players by having that. EQ could get away with forced grouping because of the semi monopoly it held. Once WoW released that era of gaming was over forever.

You can't have contested content in a game without the forced grouping aspect because of the basic degeneracy of the average MMOG player. If there is no forced grouping then there is no real reputational risk from being a asshole. If there is no downside to being a asshole then contested content just becomes a competition where the biggest asshole wins everytime.

Travel and Death timesinks are simply wastes of time that while adding depth to a game will in the end be rejected by players. The only reason I see for having these types of timesinks in a game is to slowly get rid of them over time as a reward for progressing in the game.

Your arguments are common, across many industries and mediums, and usually short sighted and ignorant.

It's like saying when the automatic transmission was introduced nobody would ever put up with a manual again! When, in fact, still going pretty strong and while a lot of fucktards can't drive a stick, a lot of people who aren't fucktards can and prefer it and there's still plenty of demand.

Just because something new comes along and the herd falls for like a bunch of idiots doesn't mean there's only that one way of doing things that is viable any longer. It just means most people are dumbfucks and like simplistic things. The golden age of mmorpgs having steeper barriers to entry is definitely over, but that doesn't mean a strong market for something mainstream removes all demand for any other, less popular options.

Hell, even when it's something easily arguable as 'better' there is almost always still a viable market for alternatives.

Unless your argument is that we all listen to pop music and it's the only music that exists, much less that people can make a living at.

By your convoluted logic, just because your girlfriend finally gives you a BJ there's no reason to ever get a hand job again. There's still plenty of reasons for a handy! Not to mention modern games are making the BJ as boring as the dumb slut that's too willing to give one to everyone and never really learned how to savor it and make it good.

Basically, what we want is a BJ from a fat chick who is appreciative of the opportunity and really takes her time with it. I'm done with sluts like WoW and the modern iteration who think just going down all the time halfheartedly is good enough.

Travel and death penalties are a waste of time? It's called foreplay, setting up something better!

At least I think that's what I'm saying.

Quaid · Oct 29, 2013

Cheese > MMORPGs

Lleauaric · Oct 29, 2013

No game should require it being played 5+ hours a day to be playing at its highest level. I think it would be unethical to make a game like that. Games need to have the time sink component removed. There is a robotic component to games now. It all started with the limitations of original eq, but WOW industrialized it.

This is one of the things I really find interesting about the ideas behind eqn. It's not about grinding endlessly or camping, it's supposedly about authentic in game experiences. I have no idea how they are going to make this work, but I'm dying to find out.

Death penalty and actual risk? Absolutely. But making a game fun and challenging might require putting the onus on the player to create the situation, and not on the devs to generate universal static content to be repeated ad infinitum. Can EQN be a game that responds to the actions of a player, rather than vis versa? That would give us freedom from the max/min culture or the triad strict class roles.

I see this and then I see people worrying about shit that doesn't fucking matter. The promise/potential of this game isn't in making a sequel to Hamlet, it's about redefining what a play is. Meanwhile some of you fuckers are bitching about the color of the ushers uniforms.

Carl_sl · Oct 29, 2013

So apparently when faced with the option of saying wow gave you the EQ feeling or facing reality about why eq was good, this board will do a complete fucking 180 and say wow gave em the eq feel when every discussion ever had on this board or the last one, post the wow release has discussed how it was in fact not giving an eq feeling but was merely ok and getting worse. delusion is rampant in here, in 20 years when you still have no experiences that capture what you had in eq will you still stand there shaking your stick at the wind and shouting how all they have to do is clone eq with new graphics and the magic will come back, or will you admit that you have been wrong all along, and have no argument to support your statements that the magic is still out there to be had. It isn't. Until you can jack in neo style and actually experience a world and beat the shit out of people for being little shits, community, and wonder are gone, you have done it all a million times not matter how you slice it.

The most delusional are the people suggesting that the first 3d representation of a world complete with models is in fact not the first of its kind.

Quaid · Oct 29, 2013

That paragraph.

Ganthorn · Oct 29, 2013

I don't think you necessarily have to have FORCED grouping but make grouping the better choice if you have the time to build the group. I always thought that all WoW had to do to encourage grouping over soloing was up the group xp in the dungeons. If you didn't have all the quests for the dungeons or full rested xp it just wasn't worth going in unless you really wanted an item and even then the items you got in most leveling up instances were either outgeared in a short time by quest loot or close enough that it didn't really matter. I suppose that is another avenue to promote grouping is make the solo quest loot very weak. Weak solo quest gear + higher xp for grouping in a dungeon and bam. If you have 30minutes, solo some quests for exp. If you have more time actually form a group and do a dungeon.

zzeris · Oct 30, 2013

Popsicle,

While I liked your posts on the old forums, this one is pretty meh in the most positive light possible. First, if I would compare MMOs to anything car related, I would not go with manual vs stick. One quite viable reason for this is that sticks never went away. No one said, damn sticks are just not going to be used and if you want to drive with one...better find an old car. It is weird that one industry would keep an option for it's customer base and the other didn't but that's another conversation. I would compare EQ/WoW to Diesel/gas cars. Diesel had issues, and went away and may finally build traction again...much like old school MMOs. See, isn't that better?

Also, calling automatic drivers fucktards is a pretty shitty argument. It hurts your original argument and any points made. While I prefer manual myself, that doesn't mean they are fucktards. Just underprivileged and missing something special.

Now, to the other point. While I agree with it, it's not your GF or a fat woman giving out BJs but the local prostitute and her pimp wants to get paid. So while you are wanting that $10 BJ every time, she's done with the BJs because her pimp doesn't like her bringing in $50 every night when she could be bringing in $200. Sure, the old hag still brings in $30 every night with her small set of clientele but the old EQ crowd always wants the younger options. Sure, they say that old bitch gave the best BJ ever but they keep spending that money on the younger girls while bitching about the quality. Now, do you think the pimp is going to change this set up? Does he care that your best BJ ever was from Olga? Especially now that you don't even pay for Olga anymore? Fuck no, because you keep going back to Sally Fatass, or her cousin Julie Dimple-Legs 4 blocks down.

Are my shitty attempts at an analogy as bad as yours were? Just trying to keep pace here.

popsicledeath · Oct 30, 2013

zzeris_sl said:
Popsicle,

While I liked your posts on the old forums, this one is pretty meh in the most positive light possible. First, if I would compare MMOs to anything car related, I would not go with manual vs stick. One quite viable reason for this is that sticks never went away. No one said, damn sticks are just not going to be used and if you want to drive with one...better find an old car. It is weird that one industry would keep an option for it's customer base and the other didn't but that's another conversation. I would compare EQ/WoW to Diesel/gas cars. Diesel had issues, and went away and may finally build traction again...much like old school MMOs. See, isn't that better?

Also, calling automatic drivers fucktards is a pretty shitty argument. It hurts your original argument and any points made. While I prefer manual myself, that doesn't mean they are fucktards. Just underprivileged and missing something special.

Now, to the other point. While I agree with it, it's not your GF or a fat woman giving out BJs but the local prostitute and her pimp wants to get paid. So while you are wanting that $10 BJ every time, she's done with the BJs because her pimp doesn't like her bringing in $50 every night when she could be bringing in $200. Sure, the old hag still brings in $30 every night with her small set of clientele but the old EQ crowd always wants the younger options. Sure, they say that old bitch gave the best BJ ever but they keep spending that money on the younger girls while bitching about the quality. Now, do you think the pimp is going to change this set up? Does he care that your best BJ ever was from Olga? Especially now that you don't even pay for Olga anymore? Fuck no, because you keep going back to Sally Fatass, or her cousin Julie Dimple-Legs 4 blocks down.

Are my shitty attempts at an analogy as bad as yours were? Just trying to keep pace here.

Yes.

I was assuming we were a part of this same thread and the context. The context being people who rail against something as old and outdated by the fact something else newer is more popular are fucktards. People who think automatic transmissions are just newer and better and don't understand why manuals are still even around are fucktards. People who think they're driving and automatic, instead of just steering, are fucktards.

So, no. While there's definitely an elitism about diesel engines, there's not the ignorance born of mindless simplicity that comes from people who scoff at manual transmissions and think automatics are simply superior in every way.

An old Persian proverb to ruminate on: Give a man a harem of 100 whores, and he'll still want that one child virgin his brother has been given through an arranged marriage.

In conclusion, EQ was a manual transmission. A game you actually had to play, not just steer yourself through.

And no, EQ isn't a child virgin promised to some hairy Persian man. Let's not be absurd.

Rope · Oct 30, 2013

The fuck are you guys talking about?

Tol_sl · Oct 30, 2013

I still don't think the "nothing will ever capture EQ's experience" thing is true. It's just that no one is really trying different approaches and most seem to do the 1-size-fits-all wow clone angle. I feel like every genre of games I play has evolved and gotten better except for MMOs (stagnation) and maybe JRPs (over-saturation and failure to evolve.) I felt like UO to EQ to wow was a massive thing, and I loved vanilla wow. But then after that I feel like a lot of stagnation hit and every game feels the same. I would love something very challenging, maybe even roguelike in a lot of aspects, with no quest hubs and less of a gear/stat focus. I'm basically waiting for the next big sandbox game I guess.

Ukerric · Oct 30, 2013

ganthorn_sl said:
Weak solo quest gear + higher xp for grouping in a dungeon and bam. If you have 30minutes, solo some quests for exp. If you have more time actually form a group and do a dungeon.

That's mostly the right track. A good modern game design would simply have the following progression paths:

- Solo outdoor for short playtime: Yields some XP, good amounts of crafting materials and thus crafted beginner gear.
- Pickup group outdoor for average playtime: Yields good XP, standard equipment
- Friends group indoor/instanced for long playtime: Yields good XP, exploration itch (modern tech: instanced dungeons are procedurally generated, not static hall-door-monster-treasure in which you end up saying "well, we took 54 seconds more than last time, that's unacceptable")
- Social guild raiding instanced for long playtime: Yields great looks and possibly fixed character improvement (no max raiding numbers; you raid primarily for the lulz with your guild, for an evening of fun, not a loot-obsessed wipe fest where the leaders will bench the underperformers all the time "or we won't beat the enrage")

Side note: In that format, the hardest content end up being the instanced dungeons: you have a fixed number of players, and you always end up going into the unknown - no idea which bosses are there, how the dungeon unfolds, what the patrols are if any. Definitely not the format where your random pickup is going to prosper, which means grouping tools work for outdoor groups, not instances.

EQ Never

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