EQ Never

B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Mob health is something that really bothers me in modern MMOs. Fights feel much less significant and much more faceroll when they only stay alive 5-10 seconds.

There is so much talk about "difficulty". I am not sure that is an appropriate phrase to use for an MMO. Risk vs Reward is probably the direction the debate should go. I am unsure you can eve make a PVE based MMO "difficult" in a twitchy skill based. I played a tank in both EQ and WoW. WoW was much more twitchy when it came to picking up adds in groups/raids and managing aggro on everything. Playing a tank in EQ was somewhat different. Pulling was super fun and agro was never really too much of an issue. There was much more group coordination (ala mob focus) in EQ. None of this was truly difficult. I am not sure what you guys want to be "difficult" in an MMO. Difficulty is for MOBAs, FPS games, RTS games, and the like. Not sure that can be or should be translated into the community driven MMO marketplace.
 
C

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,508
1,153
No I don't think it was any harder in EQ, seb was hard because when that shit went south, it was an entire lost night to recover. It was actually pretty rare to fuck up hard enough to full wipe. Oh sure sometimes those two mobs were too hard to solo, but when is the last time you tried to solo a pack in a wow dungeon, a single elite can fuck you up pretty quick when you aren't overgeared.

The big difference between the two games is in no other group can fuck up your day in WoW, but again those occurances were really fucking rare in EQ, and only truly memorable because of how fucked you were from a single death. Other than that WOW had all that shit and more, or are you gonna sit here and tell me seb was harder than BRD or Scholomance etc.

What you guys are really arguing for is a much harsher death penalty, that is what would get you back to that feeling of getting punishing content. Removing instancing won't do shit. SUre you would die sometimes cause of some assholes train, but that would prolly happen once every couple weeks and cost you 10 minutes of time and be mostly forgettable.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
I just wrote how much I want roamers/respawns/crowd control back in another thread here, so I know what you're talking about. It was probably in the McQuaid thread. Anyway you can find examples of specific situations that were difficult in both games. In your example I would mez one krup shaman, kill the other. Now you can make up an addition to the scenario that screws me and I make up a solution, and so on. That helps nobody and it's bad xp to solo at entrance anyway. However I would not call EQ dungeons more difficult overall.The challenges are just different, apples and oranges. And both games (EQ and WoW) gimped down their dungeon design more and more as the years went on.

That's not the point though. This tangent came from why people are more elitist towards pugs these days and the answer is internet anonymity within a larger pool of players and more scripting in boss encounters that people new to the encounter can fuck up.
 
B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
That make sense. Less worry about tarnishing your name when the player pool is large. It's a shame. That was a huge part of the community back in the beginning. EQ definitely had more interdependence while wow always seemed more of a solo game.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
Creslin_sl said:
What you guys are really arguing for is a much harsher death penalty, that is what would get you back to that feeling of getting punishing content.
Click to expand...
I'm in favor of a death penalty, but that's a different topic. The experience of trying to make your way through a dungeon with roamers on long paths, respawns and so on is just entirely different from the piecemeal cannon fodder in modern games. More things are out of your control. You have to play more reactive, deal with situations as they arise, think on your feet. Even when each combat encounter during an instance in WoW is hard as nails, its still going through the motions same as on the last run, nothing is different unless your own group does something different. That is still fun, but only so many times. Boredom from repetition kicks in much faster (for me anyway) in 1 hour instance runs then it does in open world play (be it dungeon or outdoor, but there are no games with challenging outdoor content anyway).
 
C

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,508
1,153
Wow instances right now are easy because they make you run them for points long after you stopped running a similar dungeon in EQ. Its similar to going into seb with 200 AA and full VT gear and thinking the game got too easy. I didn't play MOP but I did play through cata, and with the exception of wotlk every wow heroic was hard and had shit that could go wrong and wipe you when they were new and you didn't overgear it. Lots of them even had wanderers and random mobs that could spawn in the packs.

Like I said, other than death penalty and the removeal of the rare occurance where some other group wiped you not much changed. You just don't remember the bad pull in that stupid desert dungeon in cata that wasted 10m of your time like you remember the trains in seb that made you run from your bind in freeort and fight back to jugs naked.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
Creslin_sl said:
Wow instances right now are easy because they make you run them for points long after you stopped running a similar dungeon in EQ. Its similar to going into seb with 200 AA and full VT gear and thinking the game got too easy. I didn't play MOP but I did play through cata, and with the exception of wotlk every wow heroic was hard and had shit that could go wrong and wipe you when they were new and you didn't overgear it. Lots of them even had wanderers and random mobs that could spawn in the packs.

Like I said, other than death penalty and the removeal of the rare occurance where some other group wiped you not much changed. You just don't remember the bad pull in that stupid desert dungeon in cata that wasted 10m of your time like you remember the trains in seb that made you run from your bind in freeort and fight back to jugs naked.
Click to expand...
Dungeons of any difficulty for gearing progression were removed. MOP heroics were always faceroll--with the caveat that the challenge modes were more difficult and players were unable to outgear the encounters.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
Another thing about this game that really intrigues me and gives me hope that it will be a paradigm shift from the current MMO genre are the changes they have mentioned in terms of combat so far.

While little is fully fleshed out, the one thing I have picked up on is how they are changing combat to be "real" in the sense that if you swing your sword, it hits whats in front of you. No more tab targeting. I assume that also means when you shoot your magic missile (ok, bad example MM are auto hit), it hits whats in front of it. No more "Chance to hit". Now, this would REALLY be something cool if they ensure that Friendly Fire is always on. Imagine the new level of complexity combat takes when you can no longer just throw bodies at something, or stack melee on each other. Rogues have to actually time their strikes and magic users and archers have to work for angles to get in shots. Line of sight becomes important and managing real estate on a mob becomes critical.
 
Cinge

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,370
2,436
Lleauaric_sl said:
Another thing about this game that really intrigues me and gives me hope that it will be a paradigm shift from the current MMO genre are the changes they have mentioned in terms of combat so far.

While little is fully fleshed out, the one thing I have picked up on is how they are changing combat to be "real" in the sense that if you swing your sword, it hits whats in front of you. No more tab targeting. I assume that also means when you shoot your magic missile (ok, bad example MM are auto hit), it hits whats in front of it. No more "Chance to hit". Now, this would REALLY be something cool if they ensure that Friendly Fire is always on. Imagine the new level of complexity combat takes when you can no longer just throw bodies at something, or stack melee on each other. Rogues have to actually time their strikes and magic users and archers have to work for angles to get in shots. Line of sight becomes important and managing real estate on a mob becomes critical.
Click to expand...
Not to burst your bubble, but it's not actually "new". Granted I much prefer action style combat then regular tab targeting, and do hope the genre uses it instead in the future more often(and not the shitty gw2 half-ass version).

I don't see the friendly fire happening at all.
 
Siddar

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
6,479
6,029
Lleauaric_sl said:
Another thing about this game that really intrigues me and gives me hope that it will be a paradigm shift from the current MMO genre are the changes they have mentioned in terms of combat so far.

While little is fully fleshed out, the one thing I have picked up on is how they are changing combat to be "real" in the sense that if you swing your sword, it hits whats in front of you. No more tab targeting. I assume that also means when you shoot your magic missile (ok, bad example MM are auto hit), it hits whats in front of it. No more "Chance to hit". Now, this would REALLY be something cool if they ensure that Friendly Fire is always on. Imagine the new level of complexity combat takes when you can no longer just throw bodies at something, or stack melee on each other. Rogues have to actually time their strikes and magic users and archers have to work for angles to get in shots. Line of sight becomes important and managing real estate on a mob becomes critical.
Click to expand...
No way in hell will they allow friendly fire in a EQN. As for the rest you should try League of Legends to get a idea spell and attack type of abilities EQN will have.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
I think Friendly Fire could work.

Simply put a damage rebound with -level multiplier on in Towns and Newbie areas to prevent ganking and griefing.

The advantages are too good. You naturally limit the size of raid groups and automatically make the game alot more interesting. I really cant think of a reason why they wouldnt put FF in.
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Because modern game designers are awful and wholly terrible.

You could have both. Magic would take on a whole new depth. Some spells might, for example, hit where you clicked your cursor at that second, but other types, like a frost bolt, would have a time dimension that it takes to travel to the target. It would open up a whole new world of possibilities. But no, we get shit as usual. Microtransactional shit.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
The Trinity, AI, and EQ:Next - How I Lost Faith in the Trinity - EQNexus

Good article that continues the thought.

EQ combat seems like it is going to be HEAVILY dependent on collision detection. Since they have said that your strike will hit whats in front of you, the inverse is true and Tanks will have to physically intercept actual strikes on other other players. Your strike hits the mob it does damage, it hits the pillar, the pillar crumbles, why WOULDNT they have wild strikes damage other players?

Additionally and an important point. Is the EQN combat going to be MOBA/LoL style? Maybe, but with actual collision detection and working in 3 dimensions instead of 2 dimensions the similarities become remote.
 
Cinge

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,370
2,436
Dumar_sl said:
Because modern game designers are awful and wholly terrible.

You could have both. Magic would take on a whole new depth. Some spells might, for example, hit where you clicked your cursor at that second, but other types, like a frost bolt, would have a time dimension that it takes to travel to the target. It would open up a whole new world of possibilities. But no, we get shit as usual. Microtransactional shit.
Click to expand...
You realize Tera had this? I am sure some other action based games also. Certain spells had a travel path and would hit anything in that path till the end, while some would travel but stop at the first target they hit and others were just hit at mouse cursor. If that game did one thing right it was the combat.
 
rhinohelix

rhinohelix

Dental Dammer
<Gold Donor>
3,262
5,433
Bellringer_sl said:
Friendly fire -> griefing -> denial of service.

Not gonna happen.
Click to expand...
Ugh, stop with the hipster-ironic "denial of service" crap. Even in the case of good intentions, how many CoD pros are going to be playing this game such that you would trust them not to be accidentally shooting blues constantly? Lots of people are going to struggle without tab targeting, much less with a chance to hit friendlies. And in at least 100x the instances of incompetence, friendly fire-> griefing, end of line. Players left to their own devices will make a Hobbesian shithole of any game environment if not given strong guard rails in this regard; rose-colored UO and Eve examples given and mostly taken with a grain of salt.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
Well good point. FF probably wont be in.
But SOMETHING has to happen when you swing your sword, or shoot your arrow and a PC is the way... after all, a swing from a mob would hit them, falling debris would hit them... I guess you would simply block their strike.

But it could work.. like I said, put a Damage rebound effect on all players. You hit someone, outside of a duel or pvp, you take equal damage, with a multiplier for level differences. That would go a long way toward stopping the Griefing and train people to be VERY careful in combat. "FUCK BOB, YOU KILLED THE GODDAMN WARRIOR AND YOURSELF, AGAIN.... GTFO"

The point being not to create an open PVP environment, but to create a combat system with actual 3 dimensional combat and its spatial limitations. The problem with tab targeting is that it makes a 3d game, for all intents and purposes, 2d when it comes to combat.
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
You have to build mechanics around griefing. Allow it to happen if a player wants to make that choice, but that choice entails serious consequences. Make it similar to Skyrim: one attack and you get a bounty. Killing another player would take a LOT of effort to reverse.

One player per server, per IP. Griefing wouldn't happen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.