EQ Never

Flipmode_sl said:

The solution to the new player returning is to use some AA potions to increase the rate they gain them at or something similar. Why would they expect to come back from a break or time off and be at the same point as their friends who didn't quit? What else could be done to make the returning player happy while not shitting on the time invested by their friends? I am willing to listen to any perspectives on this.

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You're getting off topic. AA's are a great system in any game. The route in which they are gained in EQ, however, is the issue at hand for me. I believe, in my opinion, that EverQuests system of grinding AA's out for a week or more is a terrible design. To be specific about time invested - If a player has been playing in a system where skill points were gained through achievement, progression and skill challenges; that player will be miles ahead of a returning player. Fortunately, for that returning player he can do that same content when he returns and not be bored out of his mind. The returning player wont see the mountain of AA's that he has to grind out in strictly one zone, but instead see a fun, inviting game that he will want to play. Leveling up through the content, gaining AA's as any player would in that system should give them enough AA's to not be cock blocked by any guild, should that returning player want to raid. All the while, the steadfast player that never quit will be into the next tier of raiding, crafting, whatever, and have several more AA's. In my opinion, no player should ever run into a barrier like EQ has with AA's or flags.

On a different note: Mr. Creed, I think that was one of the greatest aspects about Eve's system. The fact that any player can choose to fly any ship they choose within a reasonable time as long as they went on that direct path towards flying that particular ship. Pilot of that ship, but not a pilot of all. Where as, relating to what Flipmode is saying, a long time player that has been using time wisely would be able to pilot any number of ships and other skills. Putting that system into Fantasy RPG MMO would be interesting to see and play, though.

Daidraco_sl said:

You're getting off topic. AA's are a great system in any game. The route in which they are gained in EQ, however, is the issue at hand for me. I believe, in my opinion, that EverQuests system of grinding AA's out for a week or more is a terrible design. To be specific about time invested - If a player has been playing in a system where skill points were gained through achievement, progression and skill challenges; that player will be miles ahead of a returning player. Fortunately, for that returning player he can do that same content when he returns and not be bored out of his mind. The returning player wont see the mountain of AA's that he has to grind out in strictly one zone, but instead see a fun, inviting game that he will want to play. Leveling up through the content, gaining AA's as any player would in that system should give them enough AA's to not be cock blocked by any guild, should that returning player want to raid. All the while, the steadfast player that never quit will be into the next tier of raiding, crafting, whatever, and have several more AA's. In my opinion, no player should ever run into a barrier like EQ has with AA's or flags.

On a different note: Mr. Creed, I think that was one of the greatest aspects about Eve's system. The fact that any player can choose to fly any ship they choose within a reasonable time as long as they went on that direct path towards flying that particular ship. Pilot of that ship, but not a pilot of all. Where as, relating to what Flipmode is saying, a long time player that has been using time wisely would be able to pilot any number of ships and other skills. Putting that system into Fantasy RPG MMO would be interesting to see and play, though.

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I do see your point. And I am not in favor of flagging. That shit is beyond retarded and an unnecessary cock blocking mechanic. AAs should add flavor to a class. A way to specialize but not necessary to completing your classes main role. So the returning player wouldn't be at that big of a disadvantage from a class point of view. They would just be under leveled and under geared. But either way, all that takes time to catch back up and they can't avoid that fact.

Things coming to people too fast is ruining the game as nothing is worth working for anymore. I don't expect a game to cater to me or my play times. I am aware that I have to work and have a family to raise. I know I can't raid or be on call if contested mobs pop 24/7. I accept that kids with higher play time than me will achieve and accomplish more. Now in EQs case, that meant those same people could lock you out of content or block you from advancing. I am not advocating that position at all. I'm simply saying that a person who plays only 30 mins a night vs a person who plays 4-8 hours a day should not expect to get where they person with high playtime is as rapidly. They need to accept that fact and deal with it. There should be a way for friends to mentor down levels and help them advance faster. EQ2 already does this and I suspect EQN will too. Basically, there needs to be a carrot to entice players at all stages of the game.

The game world isn't here to serve the players. We are in their world and they should dictate to us its rules. It should be a little deadly and dangerous. You should think twice about pulling too many mobs. Combat should be engaging and not faceroll easy. You should feel like you accomplish something. That in a nutshell is what's wrong with MMOs these days. And as for getting off topic...it's not like we have any actual information on this game. The whole thread is off topic.

You want to monetize a game and still make it not effect the game in any way? Look at TF2. You can find/craft everything, but there are crates that you can unbox with a key that you buy for 2$ which will unlock an item with absolutely no value other than it may be named different, you can get a certain skin out of a crate, or it can have some stupid effect on it. For example, you have a crate that has a chance to unbox a dagger, well occasionally that dagger will come out with a firey effect. Take that, add in the transmog system from WoW so everyone can look exactly what they want to look like - excluding higher end items maybe, so there is still that feeling of being a badass with gear not many people have obtained.

Or just add hats.

If there's one thing I learned in TF2 it's that every fucking retard gamer LOVES hats. Myself included.

They can do a ridiculous amount for making money without it effecting the game really in the slightest, and I would be totally fine with that. I really hope that's the route they go. If they claim Free 2 Play and force you to buy content/more lives/whatever, then that isn't really F2P and it's stupid and it's going to turn off a ton of people from even bothering with the game at all.

I am all for them charging for content packs if FTP is the route they go. Why not? That's actual content they are putting out and it helps ensure more gets made. But they cant be weekly content patches they are charging for. They need to have some substance to them. Wanna sell appearance gear to make your character look cool? I know they gotta make something, but that's the type of stuff that used to just be a part of the game period. Those cool and unique items were something to work for and look forward too. Selling that type of stuff just makes them seem greedy. Idk...am I the only one that thinks that?

EQ2's FTP just flat sucks. Not only does cool looking stuff not drop anymore, all the best looking mounts and gear seems to come from the cash shop. That's on top of having to pay the sub fee to even progress in the game. It's like a big double fuck you to the players who were around when they used to put time and effort into the game.

For GW2 F2P I liked everything except how they locked inventory/bank slots. I felt that was extremely annoying, especially since in GW2 I found myself running out of room a lot...plus all of your characters shared a bank. Probably wouldn't have been as bad if your characters didn't have to share a bank. But if they made the majority of cash shop items things like vanity stuff, mounts/pets...maybe add some hairstyles/skins or something idk.

The reason that I didn't like EQ FTP in its current state...is because I logged in and my bags/bank stuff were missing because they made it so you had to buy inventory slots. But like others have said...taking a game that was originally subscription and then turning it into f2p doesn't seem like a good thing to do. I would still prefer to pay a subscription though, I don't feel like spending 15 bucks is really some type of huge investment a month (with the amount of money I spend on other stuff anyway, going out to eat/buying things like books, clothes etc). Could even do something like with what TERA did and have chronoscroll things. But meh, if they said its gonna be f2p, I just hope they do it right and not make it annoying.

I actually liked AAs, and the reason being that I liked being able to progress my character further than just gear and levels. I was always in a raiding guild doing current content, so generally my druid always had basically the best gear possible. So instead of just only logging into the game to do raids every night I would have a reason to log in and farm AAs. While in WoW there was little reason for me to ever log in until raids started, and then after they ended I logged out. Sure there were things like farming factions to get mounts and stuff, but that stuff lasts you like a month or so max. I got my netherwing drake mount in a few days from just nonstop farming the eggs.

I don't feel like AAs are as bad as gear resets...as your AAs don't ever go away, they are always going to be meaningful. Maybe instead of just having it be just pure mob grinds make it into something that isn't as tedious, someone mentioned achievements etc. And whenever they add AAs, you could just add something like an XP boost...say if they start out with 500 AAs, then when they add 500 more anyone that is below 500 gets some huge boost so they can easily catch up.

Convo_sl said:

I wish they would just poll their players on this shit. Put a few different FTP models up and poll them to see which are best. Add a sub to the poll too. Let's see what the players wants. If they have a huge sample it should at least point them in the right direction.

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Except, many,manyplayers are straight up retarded and shouldn't be given any say in game design (hello 2 U people who still like WoW). I don't want any of that shit in a serious game from this genre; of which there are NONE now.

Yea asking the players is a recipe for failure. I think the best lessons are found in the games that came out as failure or success over the last 5+ years and learn from that. According to Smed they did learn lesson #1 and followed through by nuking their WoW clone concept from orbit. Now we have to see what else they can learn from recent MMO history.

Imo the next step is finding out why *all* MMOs in the last 5 years were short distractions instead of a game a player sticks with for years. Even WoW has mutated into such a short term game where people play for a few weeks in the new patch and then leave for half a year (or continue paying but barely play / piss away time). I played LoL more seriously then the last couple of MMOs i tried. If they rediscover a way to keep people playing they have a good start. gaming culture might have changed too much for the old EQ addiction method to work, but then they have to find new ways to shackle their playerbase to the keyboard. I think one direction could be a mix of lots of new content very regularly and various sandboxy stuff stolen from minecraft, eve etc. EQ1 at its height had an expansion every 6-8 months iirc? with as many zones WoW with a trillion more revenue puts out in a few years? Sure the currrent stuff is more polished, better graphics etc but thats because EQ is ancient.

Convo_sl said:

I'm just talking about exploring FTP models with the player base...

Anyway, qwerty is on to something and I said with the pvp talk. They should offer a pvp server where the classes have skills based around pvp and different from the skills you would find on a PVE server. Same game 2 totally different experiences.

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But that would be double work for SOE because they'd have to balance all mobs and raid mobs around different abilities. SOE can't even do that with one rule set. So why confuse them even further?

Convo_sl said:

I'm just talking about exploring FTP models with the player base...

Anyway, qwerty is on to something and I said with the pvp talk. They should offer a pvp server where the classes have skills based around pvp and different from the skills you would find on a PVE server. Same game 2 totally different experiences.

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FTP does not work with a real MMO.

It works with a mini-MMO where there isn't sufficient content for the player-base (due both to content limitations and instancing which results in content churn).

FTP means that something outside the world (RMT) results in a change in the world: stat/item/chrome/something. This goes for everything from Potion of Winning +10%, to the 'chrome only' Black Stallion that is the same speed as in-mounts but only available for $19.95 in the Company Store.

Either the game is complete: in the sense that everything in the game is obtainable only by playing the game or the game is not-complete and there are things in the game that are only available via out-of-game payment (I won't even go into the slippery-slope argument that even if you start with chrome eventually it will turn into PTW).

An not-complete game ruins the risk/reward relationship when you see an item only obtainable through money as you wander through Norrath (or whever). EQ had the 'I want that factor' you saw an item and you knew the only way to obtain it was through a lot of fucking work. Once something is obtainable only through money the reward is cheapened.

tad10_sl said:

An not-complete game ruins the risk/reward relationship when you see an item only obtainable through money as you wander through Norrath (or whever). EQ had the 'I want that factor' you saw an item and you knew the only way to obtain it was through a lot of fucking work. Once something is obtainable only through money the reward is cheapened.

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EQNext will feature an innovative Free To Play system wherein you can only purchase The Winged Mount of Epic Flying only after you've killed the Raid boss that drop the token that unlocks it in the store. For $19.95.

ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl said:

EQNext will feature an innovative Free To Play system wherein you can only purchase The Winged Mount of Epic Flying only after you've killed the Raid boss that drop the token that unlocks it in the store. For $19.95.

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I should mark this post, the joke will be alarmingly close to the truth. Classic SOE ftp bullshit is (in VG) to drop Bronze/Silver/Gold Chests with random loot (including legendaries) that require RMT skeleton keys to open. So watch the EQNext Raid Boss drop 'Adamantite Chests' requiring the $19.95 key.

I wish Smed wasn't such a fucking follower.

Burren_sl said:

Except, many,manyplayers are straight up retarded and shouldn't be given any say in game design (hello 2 U people who still like WoW). I don't want any of that shit in a serious game from this genre; of which there are NONE now.

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Unfortunately true. Most gamers don't really know what they want; they think they want everything now but when they get everything now they get bored, now.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Yea asking the players is a recipe for failure. I think the best lessons are found in the games that came out as failure or success over the last 5+ years and learn from that. According to Smed they did learn lesson #1 and followed through by nuking their WoW clone concept from orbit. Now we have to see what else they can learn from recent MMO history.

Imo the next step is finding out why *all* MMOs in the last 5 years were short distractions instead of a game a player sticks with for years. Even WoW has mutated into such a short term game where people play for a few weeks in the new patch and then leave for half a year (or continue paying but barely play / piss away time). I played LoL more seriously then the last couple of MMOs i tried. If they rediscover a way to keep people playing they have a good start. gaming culture might have changed too much for the old EQ addiction method to work, but then they have to find new ways to shackle their playerbase to the keyboard. I think one direction could be a mix of lots of new content very regularly and various sandboxy stuff stolen from minecraft, eve etc. EQ1 at its height had an expansion every 6-8 months iirc? with as many zones WoW with a trillion more revenue puts out in a few years? Sure the currrent stuff is more polished, better graphics etc but thats because EQ is ancient.

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want to know why all the recent MMO's have sucked ass and EQ and vanilla WoW were so great? easy: it took time. it took a lot of playing time to level up in EQ (and even to an extent although not nearly as much in vanilla WoW). so the game slowed down and it wasn't just about rushing to max level, it was about actually playing and enjoying the game every step of the way. there was so much content in EQ, even at the lowest levels, that you wanted to truly explore everything and everywhere and not every play session was just about logging in and grinding quests or grinding exp. sometimes you just logged in to try and farm a specific item, or a specific area or dungeon, or just spend some time in a new area you hadn't been to before. because it took so long to level up, the game felt more rewarding and the loot/items that you accumulated along the way actually meant something because you used the items for several weeks or months and not several hours. the next MMO that will be successful will be one that actually realizes this and makes it so you can't reach max level in the opening weekend.