EQ Never

Burren

Burren

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etchazz_sl said:
want to know why all the recent MMO's have sucked ass and EQ and vanilla WoW were so great? easy: it took time. it took a lot of playing time to level up in EQ (and even to an extent although not nearly as much in vanilla WoW). so the game slowed down and it wasn't just about rushing to max level, it was about actually playing and enjoying the game every step of the way. there was so much content in EQ, even at the lowest levels, that you wanted to truly explore everything and everywhere and not every play session was just about logging in and grinding quests or grinding exp. sometimes you just logged in to try and farm a specific item, or a specific area or dungeon, or just spend some time in a new area you hadn't been to before. because it took so long to level up, the game felt more rewarding and the loot/items that you accumulated along the way actually meant something because you used the items for several weeks or months and not several hours. the next MMO that will be successful will be one that actually realizes this and makes it so you can't reach max level in the opening weekend.
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Spot on. There has to be content (lots) and it has to matter when you do something or get something. People used the Cloak of Flames through Luclin and beyond because it was fucking boss. EQ didn't have ridiculous, drastic increases in item power; people used things for a long damn time and that meant you appreciated what you had. Now, you get "magic sword of the hero +4" at level six and then +9 at level 12; no effort, no appreciation, no fun. I liken it to kids who get a car for a present, versus kids who work a job and buy a piece of shit, but they love it and appreciate it because they put the effort in.

At the end of the day, I just don't see EQ Next being able to live up to all of our hopes and dreams because ultimately, we're all different than we were 12 years ago and as much as I might think I want something, the reality could be just as different when it goes live.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
etchazz_sl said:
want to know why all the recent MMO's have sucked ass and EQ and vanilla WoW were so great? easy: it took time. it took a lot of playing time to level up in EQ (and even to an extent although not nearly as much in vanilla WoW). so the game slowed down and it wasn't just about rushing to max level, it was about actually playing and enjoying the game every step of the way. there was so much content in EQ, even at the lowest levels, that you wanted to truly explore everything and everywhere and not every play session was just about logging in and grinding quests or grinding exp. sometimes you just logged in to try and farm a specific item, or a specific area or dungeon, or just spend some time in a new area you hadn't been to before. because it took so long to level up, the game felt more rewarding and the loot/items that you accumulated along the way actually meant something because you used the items for several weeks or months and not several hours. the next MMO that will be successful will be one that actually realizes this and makes it so you can't reach max level in the opening weekend.
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Thats exactly the problem with the current MMO crop and the players. Tunnel vision to the "end game", screw 90% of the actual game. What they dont want to realize is that once you are at the end of a game, its usually over. Instead they demand that the company pushes the end further away once they get there. Maybe the solution to this behaviour is taking away the endgame, maybe not. How would you do that anyway? I think GW2 tried to go that way, but then again it doesnt seem to be the big hit it wanted to be.

Maybe taking away the level progression for something more like EVE or entirely AA-based could work.
 
M

Martyr_sl

shitlord
23
0
I could feel every tiny item Upgrade to my gear in EQ. Sometimes it was just a little more AC or HP and it made surviving to lets say a yellow conning mob so much easier. (Actually my ranger couldn't even handle blues
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The game was hard and slow, so you had to look for stuff to make your journey more comfortable- small upgrades meant a great thing. And it was nowhere easy to find those upgrade, as there were no random drops from normal world mobs. At some point i even had to farm cash for a week (!) (mammoth in Everfrost) to buy me some Icetooth claws
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And when i finally had those, it was a feeling like a new fast car.

They need to realise how to make people addictive again. Like you need a specific item or quest to continue your leveling / adventuring, and those require help of friends. Encourage team play.
Why the fuck is my friendlist in recent MMO that come out almost empty? Because i dont need help anymore from anybuddy. You can solo all your way to max in no time, then get bored and quit. Grouping has become optional. Sure it can be nice and fun, but its different from when you have to ask people to help get you the item, that you want so badly.

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F

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
Daidraco_sl said:
On a different note: Mr. Creed, I think that was one of the greatest aspects about Eve's system. The fact that any player can choose to fly any ship they choose within a reasonable time as long as they went on that direct path towards flying that particular ship. Pilot of that ship, but not a pilot of all. Where as, relating to what Flipmode is saying, a long time player that has been using time wisely would be able to pilot any number of ships and other skills. Putting that system into Fantasy RPG MMO would be interesting to see and play, though.
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xzi_sl said:
I just really hope they bring back diversity in MMO's, in terms of classes.
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I am not an Eve fanboy, as I think they do a lot of things wrong. But if you want to pinch some of their ideas and put them into a fantasy setting you can.

Eve's ship system allows for a very diverse selection of classes. Putting Eve's skill training system aside for the moment, it would still be possible to use this system in a fantasy game. You go about gathering Skill Points (call them whatever you want) in whichever way the game allows it. If you spend them on Skelton 4 and Mage 2, you can be a skeleton mage, etc.

On another note, Eve's 3D map could work in a fantasy game, although on a smaller scale and you would probably want to playing field to be 2D / flat. If you have a 2D map, you could add a third dimension by using underground tunnels / areas. It would take a lot of effort to avoid a too much black scenario, but if you think of the whole forgotten realms underdark style, it could be done.

I could ramble on with ideas, but this probably isn't the thread for it.
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
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Flank_sl said:
Eve's ship system allows for a very diverse selection of classes.
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Eve system is "the cloth maketh the man". How you play is defined by your equipment, and your skills let you use (or use more efficiently) your equipment.
If you spend them on Skelton 4 and Mage 2, you can be a skeleton mage, etc.
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Actually, it would be more on the lines of "if you spend them on wands and lightning, you can throw equip a nice lightning bolt wand". If you have one, that is. Combine with some specific stats systems (cloth boosts mana which is consumed by all that lightning bolt throwing; leather boosts energy; armor boosts endurance, etc), and you have a free-form system in which each character can develop slightly in depth, but mostly in breadth.
 
Nirgon

Nirgon

Log Wizard
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One thing is for sure.

Grobb better be a troll city.

And day 1 I'm doing a dark race raid on Freeport.
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

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Caeden_sl said:
All that with pulling/lulls is all well and good, but I sorta fail to see that it'll bring in mass subs. Though, why should mass subs be the point right?

Just tossing it out there that cata bled subs and apparently blizz thought it was at least in part due to the difficulty and cc required. Will be interesting to see MoP retention. I loved cata heroics and tbc heroics which, while not the open crawl you guys are discussing, is as close as wow got.

I just thing if they go that route, I'd expect to only have a fraction of wow subs. Again fine. But does SoE agree?

Edit: brd was really closest but I never really experienced that until leveling with tbc talents. I remember an epic half day slog with me and the ex with a buddy. It was a fond yet massively frustrating experience.
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If Cata difficulty bled subs, it's because those guys were fucking scrubs we don't want in EQ Next either. A decent, challenging game will have players. Maybe not 10 million, but it's clear enough that we can't say "this won't work because players turn down difficult MMOs" because since WoW there has not been a well designed, difficult MMO
 
D

Draegan_sl

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I hate AAs. It's just another experience bar to fill out all day long, forever. It's like an unending daily quest grind.

AAs should be tied to achievement scores or something similar. Once I hit max level, I want to stop grinding shit. But I don't mind attempting to do different things for advancement. Timed dungeons runs, killing certain bosses, exploring etc. Engage me with interesting gameplay and I'm there.

Actually, get rid of experience all-to-gether. Instead of gaining experience for levels, just put different achievements in a zone (like 2-3x more than you need to level) and once I do all of them, I get a level or a group of levels. Kill this bad guy, finish this dungeon, find all the whatevers.

Much better than quest grinding for xp. Get those bars out of my face!
 
xzi

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
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Quineloe_sl said:
If Cata difficulty bled subs, it's because those guys were fucking scrubs we don't want in EQ Next either. A decent, challenging game will have players. Maybe not 10 million, but it's clear enough that we can't say "this won't work because players turn down difficult MMOs" because since WoW there has not been a well designed, difficult MMO
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True that. Closest thing would besomeof the raid game in Rift. It probably isn't going to be a huge game like WoW at its peak, but it doesn't need to be. If they can keep their zones finished and bugs at a minimal, I know there is a rather large community out there that will be trying to push difficult content.

Just because the game isn't so carebear friendly in dungeons or raids doesn't mean it has to dismiss the general mouth breather market, though.
 
xzi

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
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Draegan_sl said:
I hate AAs. It's just another experience bar to fill out all day long, forever. It's like an unending daily quest grind.

AAs should be tied to achievement scores or something similar. Once I hit max level, I want to stop grinding shit. But I don't mind attempting to do different things for advancement. Timed dungeons runs, killing certain bosses, exploring etc. Engage me with interesting gameplay and I'm there.

Actually, get rid of experience all-to-gether. Instead of gaining experience for levels, just put different achievements in a zone (like 2-3x more than you need to level) and once I do all of them, I get a level or a group of levels. Kill this bad guy, finish this dungeon, find all the whatevers.

Much better than quest grinding for xp. Get those bars out of my face!
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That would be awesome. I'm okay with the way Planetside 2 works with levels. They basically don't mean anything but give you a Title and a neat little symbol to show off. You can remove level restrictions on gear by placing drops in only harder zones or whatever. You'd still have some form of a progression but it could be more skill or group oriented.

I'd be fine with redefining the leveling system in MMO's.. I think everyone who has played an MMO is sick of leveling by now.
 
F

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
Just remove levels altogether. You already have gear as a way to progress your character. The details will be different depending on other design decisions, but any mmo can be made to work without levels.

What is the point in having advancement hit a hard cap, so that you have to then add alternate advancement? If levels are going to be your advancement then dont cap it, but there are better ways to do advancement than levels.
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

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xzi_sl said:
True that. Closest thing would besomeof the raid game in Rift. It probably isn't going to be a huge game like WoW at its peak, but it doesn't need to be. If they can keep their zones finished and bugs at a minimal, I know there is a rather large community out there that will be trying to push difficult content.

Just because the game isn't so carebear friendly in dungeons or raids doesn't mean it has to dismiss the general mouth breather market, though.
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Mouth breathers are one thing, but if Cata non raid content was so difficult people quit over it, they're a bunch of limp dick facerollers, the absolute bottom of the barrel skillwise, the kind of people who still run around with grey items in their 30s or stacking int at 55 on their rogues because that makes them level faster.

On a less rage filled topic, travel has been brought up in here repeatedly already. A combination of travelling definitely is important, no one should have to travel for 15+ minutes to get to a group, no matter how far away it is. Gates like EQ should bring you really close (let's say within 5 minutes tops) of the target, but drop you only in safe zones, ie the lowest level zones of that area, similar to Velious only allowing you to port to Cobalt Scar, Wakening Lands, Great Divide but not into Western Wastes or actual dungeons. In WoW you simply bypassed even the most dangerous zones because the Rickshaw Rocks teleported you straight to the dungeon entrance.
 
Dandai

Dandai

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There isn't anything too substative here, but I'd consider it an update considering how much we haven't heard about EQNext so far:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/14/ev...-to-make-wow2/

The long anticipated follow-up to Everquest isn't looking to plough the same furrow as previous MMOs. In fact, SOE threw away two prototypes because they weren't radical enough (possibly making the character shot above woefully out of date). Now recently unveiled internally to SOE staff, the redesigned game hopes to "define the next generation of MMOs" - such is the claim by SOE president John Smedley during our lengthy interview - which is to be posted in full later.

"Everybody has been making the same game since Everquest, really," says Smedley. "If you look back, Ultima Online was out before us and really, all the current crop of MMOs are a lot like Everquest - they're in that style. They're great because the quality level has really improved, but nobody has really changed the game. the previous designs we had for the next Everquest were cookie-cutter, they were 'me too'. We had some great, innovative things in there and they'd have been great games in themselves, but they wouldn't have been enough to keep an audience. We've had people playing Everquest for 13 years and we kept that in our mind as the main goal when making Everquest Next."

Bold words! But, in any case, the game seems to have gone down well with SOE staff at its internal unveiling.

"I was really nervous about [showing SOE staff the game]," says Smedley. "We showed it to them on Monday, and I couldn't sleep on Sunday night because I was scared. We've thrown out two previous designs of the game to go with something pretty crazy and. well, it's awesome. When the team saw it I could barely breathe when they were watching it. But when I'd finished they were clapping and cheering - and these guys are gamers, so they're not afraid to call bullshit when they see us make a mistake. It's happened before. We've made mistakes, and the guys internally will call us on it every time. But they loved this, and we really felt vindicated that the way we're going with Everquest Next is the right way. I feel good about it. We're not trying to make WOW2 or Everquest 2.5 - we're making something that we think will define the next generation of MMOs."

Apparently they just showed it to their internal staff. Expect leaks soon if it sucks?
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Dandai_sl said:
Apparently they just showed it to their internal staff. Expect leaks soon if it sucks?
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Everything Smed says is 90% bullshit. I don't buy any of this. Why Sony doesn't fire him, I'll never know - he has fucked up soooo many times.
 
xzi

xzi

Mouthbreather
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Quineloe_sl said:
Mouth breathers are one thing, but if Cata non raid content was so difficult people quit over it, they're a bunch of limp dick facerollers, the absolute bottom of the barrel skillwise, the kind of people who still run around with grey items in their 30s or stacking int at 55 on their rogues because that makes them level faster.
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Like I said in the other post, retards aren't going to make it to higher level zones without learning to play, but they can still dick around where everyone else does. That kind of ties in with the level thing though.

I can't fathom anybody quitting over hard content in Cata.. cause.. wut. I know it happened, but those are people that have quit and moved back to consoles/farmville (well real farmville, not MOP)
 
Convo

Convo

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Interesting comments.. I'm not as pessimistic as Tad, but until I start hearing real details/trying it for myself i'm going to stay cautious with my expectations. I don't even feel like reinventing the wheel was necessary. It's just the jump from EQ1 to current MMO's has been too drastic for my liking. They could very well being doing something that revolutionizes MMO's. That doesn't mean it's a good thing.. I wish we could just get some basic details on the game.. Classes, content, grouping, solo, etc.. Maybe Smed will eventually show up here if he doesn't already lurk..
 
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