EQ Never

Edit: Now that I wrote this I think I sad the same thing 10 pages back. Thread is hunting its tail without any new info =/ So here's a thought with at least some basis in facts: Since they are using the PS2 engine which already has decent day/night cycle and afaik weather is planned for it too, how important do you rate different and changing weather for the EQNext? Personally I think it is very important to have, It's one of the things I always missed from anything post-EQ.

IMO this is huge and never fully realized it when I played EQ. All the little environment sounds, day/night cycles weather changes really helped to immerse you into their world. After playing Horizons (wtf was I thinking) eq2, wow, vanguard and rift , and going back to eq live after years away from it, it really stood out. All those games had some forms of it, but never felt as well done as eq.

I always thought the faction champions fight from WotLK was pretty decent AI. Every big fight being like that would probably make people quit though.

Convo_sl said:

I just don't understand why challenge is even a concern with the amount of MMO's that are being put out. Didn't it take them like 2 years to put PS2 together? Give the EQ crowd it's rightful successor and worry about the masses with the next mmo..Who know's it could turn out to be a huge hit.

Btw.. if they plan to keep people playing for 15 years.. there needs to be some sort of challenge to it. I can't even play some of these games for 15 days lol

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I know it's been beat to death back on FOH, but if there aren't consequences for dumb actions... Content will continue to be ripped through faster than can be made.

Lenas_sl said:

I always thought the faction champions fight from WotLK was pretty decent AI. Every big fight being like that would probably make people quit though.

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That fight was all about "find the bug in the script" and some of the players liked it and some hated it. But the problem was that it was not meeting the expectations of the players as you can't have a game out for years and then suddenly add a pvp-like fight and not get pushback.

The whole combat in MMOs needs an upgrade. Non-contextual threat is part of the problem (and by this I mean a mob that does not understand your actions as you perform them).

Convo_sl said:

knowing that EQN is suppose to be a sandbox why can't AI be a progression thing? If a mob kills players at a camp, he becomes stronger and more challenging to defeat. He would develop more skills the longer he stays up. eventually making him a boss if he survives that long.

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I like that idea, but it would have to be selective and capped at some point. Using an example from EQ; Frenzy Ghoul in Guk starts out tough, but gets even nastier each kill, within a defined range (after the first kill he gets between 5% and 15% stronger. After second kill he gets between 15% and 25% stronger, etc. ["stronger could also mean that beyond more HP and DPS, spells, abilities, and behavior changes]). But, how many times does that happen and at what point can a single group no longer take him? What does that mean for "camps" or do they want to remove that mechanic (in some ways, I hope not). This would have to be an open dungeon and not instanced, so that when this mod DOES reach the power level requiring 2 groups, or 3, that can happen. Does the loot scale with difficulty, or the % chance only?

The possible promotion of community would be good, but the shit-show that was rifts got old fast and I would hate for that to happen as well. Not to mention that if every "named" mob in a dungeon was coded this way, it could get tiresome to have to leave the area because there weren't enough people on, or whatever.

I don't know, the idea has potential.

Flipmode_sl said:

And how long did that "unique" skillset last before every little Timmy had the same one and it was FOTM? Skill based games are not what I'm talking about. I'm addressing games that already have a class structure, like EQ. The tacked on PVP doesn't work in those games because the classes are inherently imbalanced in PVP. All the changing of the spells for PVP leads to a reduction in effectiveness of said spell in PVE. Eventually, you get classes that are all about the same. Very homogenized and little flavor or "uniqueness" left.

If Asherons Call got it so right, why aren't they lauded and modeled after? Why does everyone hold DAOC up as the best PVP in MMOs? They all seem to miss the mark trying to balance PVE/PVP.

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I don't think EQ changed many if any spells in PvE because of PvP. It's mostly because they didn't care enough to, but that's how it was. EQ just disabled the spells in pvp or made them do less damage, ie 66% of normal and a cap of 60 or 75% of your max hp later on. Despite the imbalances in PvP, it wasn't all that bad if you knew what you were doing.

Malkav_sl said:

Yeah yeah we get it already. Y'all just want to be able to have 20 hours camps again followed by raids until 5am so you can show up shit faced at work.

This kind of shit can work when you're an unemployed bum or in college/high school, and when you have about zero social life. Nowadays though? Forget it. I have better shit to do than to be dicking around in an MMO.

EQNext may well be about the journey again, but don't expect the kind of shit you want.

Seriously, can we get off the wishful thinking train and have a real speculation thread about the game for once? Don't you guys want to start your own "EQ rose-colored glasses thread" or something to talk about this kind of things?

You all have been bitching about the good old days for years, we get it already. I mean, the subject has come full circle almost two dozens time in the last few years. Can't you give it a rest? You'll almost 100% never have what you seek, and you'll keep bitching about it, so couldn't you do it in an "EQ was awesome, modern MMO suck!" thread somewhere instead of any thread about any future game?

Yes, I said it, it's tiring to swim through all your nostalgia bullshit when I just want to catch tidbits about the actual game.

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jesus christ. talk about having sand in your vagina...

Mughal_sl said:

That fight was all about "find the bug in the script" and some of the players liked it and some hated it. But the problem was that it was not meeting the expectations of the players as you can't have a game out for years and then suddenly add a pvp-like fight and not get pushback.

The whole combat in MMOs needs an upgrade. Non-contextual threat is part of the problem (and by this I mean a mob that does not understand your actions as you perform them).

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So the question would be programmed reaction time (with random modifiers) and core counters/tactics that are targeted at player-centric meta gaming. Ie, CCing/focusfiring healers and other CCers first then killing the damage then tanks. NPCs effectively need a taunt and need an assist that goes beyond highest threat and is instead situational depending upon the abilities used by the players. With a fallback of if the players do -nothing- then insta-cast low cooldown abilities are used instead. Lower npc hp/damage to near that of players and then test reactions. When players find a way to fuck your NPC (corner tanking to avoid enrage, multiple tanks keeping required-duration taunts active, CCs that can be chained etc etc) then the npcs can be changed to better fight back. To use a srpg concept, the idea of programable gambits that can use any ability/spell the players have access to and combine it with a multitude of different potential checks such as the target being under certain conditions/health/mp percentages from Final Fantasy 12 but instead used for NPC programming, as it were. With progressively higher level monsters using additional gambits to further complicate the fight with better and more refined ability usage.

Then take player abilities and match them but with gear/skill level/faster reaction time they can overcome even the highest level npcs in combat. Not a baseline. You can't spam Sinister Strike and kill even con mobs with zero risk. A tank NPC will pop shield block and stun you. Another rogue npc will burn you equally fast but toss in stuns as well. A healer NPC will shield themself and dot you. A wizard will root you, run back a bit and nuke you down. You have to use your abilities on every fight. Imagine if druid/sk/necro/bard/ranger npcs checked to see if you were SoW'd or under any movement increasing effects and then either chain dispelled til you weren't or snared -you- instead as a primary action, with targetable range being the range they check for effects.

It is still scripted and there is no question of that. But scripting can do a lot more than Enrage at 20% or start casting uninterruptable Complete Heals at 15% health. Create triggers based on what players can do and then counter it. Patch something instead of doors in FP.

It also sounds akin to the virtual ecology that UO attempted to have. If players killed off too many wolves then the population of things like rabbits would begin to grow because their natural predators were too few to keep them in check. If the population of deer dropped off, then a dragon might attack one of the towns looking for food because there was no longer enough in it's normal territory to keep it feeding there. They ended up scrapping the whole thing because players kept the entire ecology so wiped out the system wouldn't work.

qwerty_sl said:

We've been through this a million times before. You can't make a game that suits both types of gamer. If tards freak out at hard AI, then they can go back to WoW, Vanguard, Rift, GW2, TSW, AoC, etc..etc.. The whole point of a niche game is that it can do what the few want and can't get anywhere else. I would love intelligent and challenging AI. The challenge in current games comes from the mechanics like the HP and dps etc. and a modern game with better AI could still have that. But it could also have NPC's that hide, bail, ambush etc.

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Just curious, but how far are you, as a gamer, willing to go for that niche game? If the game had the gameplay you desired, how much would you be willing to pay for it (box and monthly)? Would you accept EQ-at-release era graphics in a game released in 2013+? How much are you willing to give up in order to get the perfect (assuming perfect is possible) gameplay?