EQ TLP - Mischief (Free Trade / Random Loot)

Lol what a shitshow. Classic.

Atabishi said:

oh i'm not asking which side is getting more spawns. I was asking in terms of DPS races (if there has been any), who has won those?

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We haven't really had a even DPS yet, so I would have to say FXIV when we have tried due to their numbers (Sev and PD so far were contested and The Faceless lost both undermanned)

Finally, some good drama. Rizlona is great and drama free but I gotta get my fix somewhere.

There have not been any DPS races that I've seen and I'm not sure there will be. Anytime one guild has clearly mobilized faster the other guild has called off their batphone, or has just started training. I'm not actually sure there is currently seen as any incentive to DPS race especially when most of the time you can actually tell which raid will win a DPS race before engage. I haven't really been able to make most of the TF raids, but my personal opinion is the right take on OW is it's just a casual diversion, but serves little real purpose. The bonus loot and random loot meta actually mean things like 12+ hour poopsocks just make zero sense. Like all the loot is tradeable, a good % of any loot FxIV wins will just be sold on the open market anyway. You can get that loot more effectively by camping krono instead of spending 12 hours making 0 krono, and then just buying their loot from them. Most VP items that I've seen are going for less than 10kr (lots less than 5) with a few standouts, loot is cheap as fuck on this server and krono is easy to come by.

There has actually never been a server, even Selo which had half lockouts, where I think open world has mattered less, for that matter where raiding has mattered less. You can literally be full BiS on this server without being in a raid guild, and I actually don't doubt there are some big $ whales in non-raiding casual guilds that are fully decked out. I've heard of at least a few who have dropped $3000+ on gear, without ever having raided.

Cukernaut said:

It’s not about the loot it’s about the glory

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Right but there is no glory. And to be honest you have never known the glory either. It's always been weird to me the loudest "reee I wanna batphone" people have been veterans of AoC servers. To me, competition in EQ was about taking things that other guilds desperately needed and that you could block them from acquiring. The last server where this existed were the Ragefire/Lockjaw sister servers. When siliinius kept 4 guilds from even being able to SEE Elemental planes for 4 months, that was dominance. AoC server open world contesting is mostly fanboy bullshit from betas who never played real EQ. Like that's the brutal truth.

I never understood the hot take that Phinny was this mega tough boy server, it had AoCs. AoCs are casual everquest. The top guild to come out of Phinny was OGC, it out lasted AoS by like 4 years and reached live, and they were mostly irrelevant in open world in the AoC era. They cleared every expansion pretty quickly. Other guilds on Phinny did as well. This actually proves that even on a "slow" server without double loot, AoC is more than enough for your guild to complete all content. This means OW is nothing but a diversion.

On the old school TLPs if you didn't win OW mobs you got 0 raid loot. That's the sort of attitude that guilds like TL lived by on Fippy, back when TLPs were hardcore. I frankly have never really understood the people that think OW is a big deal once they introduced AoC. I think if you have a lot of people who want to raid a lot, you should go after OW targets. But you shouldn't really confuse OW eq for anything skill based. Runing an automated tracker is not a skill based activity, bringing 150 people to a DPS race isn't a skill based activity (and I'm saying that as someone who has done both things.) I'm not dismissing open world entirely and I've done plenty of open world raiding, I'm just saying it's been a straight meme on TLP since the day Phinny launched, mostly existing to serve the drama lust of casuals who likely never could have persisted on the old school TLPs.

WorryPlaysGames said:

We haven't really had a even DPS yet, so I would have to say FXIV when we have tried due to their numbers (Sev and PD so far were contested and The Faceless lost both undermanned)

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Aye, there's been what, 3 or 4 interactions with the two guilds so far? There are a few people pretending to know what's going on that don't have a clue, and even some that do play here that can't see what's right in front of them.

FXIV started it by choosing to train VS. It's all meaningless for the time being. But imagine being in a guild in 2021 where 50+ of your members have to sit in skyfire for over 10 hours on a weekend, all for a 6,000p split. Awful, just really awful.

These meaningless things in Kunark don't matter at all, it's just jousting.

Kael and NToV will be fun. I'm looking forward to it.

Zaide said:

Yeah I don't know why people are upset or surprised. This is pretty much like any contested raiding on any EQ server ever; it's just part of the game. Zog What did I do?

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I believe it was telling your raid to train us, your members calling you a hypocrite for it.. and telling them to get the fuck out if they dont like it... Lying through your teeth about training us. Makes you a piece of shit.

Were only a handful of mobs into this little dispute, how far are you willing to go?

Cukernaut said:

ever since selos youve really embraced those ways and I understand. It’s nuanced in theory the aocs allow secondary guilds to stay competitive longer (which is why a lot of people reference phinny as a competitive server).

the reality is it has always become winner take all which made this whole evolution on mischief seem mildly interesting as a change. We’ll see how it plays out.

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Historically, kronolords never stay long on TLP's. Personally I think FXIV is going to fold at some point in the relatively near future for some very obvious reasons.

I think the one thing we can all agree on though, is the ruleset on Mischief definitely throws a lot of variables in the old formula. Who knows! But so far, it's been a blast.

Zog said:

I believe it was telling your raid to train us, your members calling you a hypocrite for it.. and telling them to get the fuck out if they dont like it... Lying through your teeth about training us. Makes you a piece of shit.

Were only a handful of mobs into this little dispute, how far are you willing to go?

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So, just curious, did Krimz and Kegadin admit then to everyone in their guild they trained Faceless at VS? Or did they make up some excuse about how VS got pulled on to TF's raid?

I was also the one in voice who called Zaide out for setting a dangerous precedent with his willingness to train, but after Bossmez told one of our officers it was open season on training in raids, I guess I can't complain.

WorryPlaysGames said:

So, just curious, did Krimz and Kegadin admit then to everyone in their guild they trained Faceless at VS? Or did they make up some excuse about how VS got pulled on to TF's raid?

I was also the one in voice who called Zaide out for setting a dangerous precedent with his willingness to train, but after Bossmez told one of our officers it was open season on training in raids, I guess I can't complain.

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I wasn't there and if they did train you, why didnt they get a suspension? How did a warrior train you without dying? I don't think you know how this works.

Theres a big difference between bringing a couple mobs to the staging location and training intentionally by rounding up every mob you can to wipe a raid, if some mobs came to the pit it was due to racing to get there and mobilize to race VS, not to wipe your 15-20 people sitting in pit.

FXIV will never resort to training and underhanded tactics because we don't need to, trying to justify your actions is only an act of desperation.

Let's get real, there will always be training on contested content. Right or wrong, when has it ever not been standard operating procedure? I'm not saying it happens every time (surprisingly had a few Bloodthirst races on Mangler that did not involve training, but I think that was due to raid leader discretion), but both sides will do it, both sides will have members who WANT to do it and even do it without being told, and both sides will have members who cry about the other side doing it. If no one in your raid is doing it at a particular moment, it's probably because it's obvious your side is going to win, there's nothing viable to train, or it would affect your guild's chances to win too much. This Hatfield and McCoys blame game is silly.

Ravanta said:

Aye, there's been what, 3 or 4 interactions with the two guilds so far? There are a few people pretending to know what's going on that don't have a clue, and even some that do play here that can't see what's right in front of them.

FXIV started it by choosing to train VS. It's all meaningless for the time being. But imagine being in a guild in 2021 where 50+ of your members have to sit in skyfire for over 10 hours on a weekend, all for a 6,000p split. Awful, just really awful.

These meaningless things in Kunark don't matter at all, it's just jousting.

Kael and NToV will be fun. I'm looking forward to it.

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I'm pretty sure no one was forced to poopsock or even pressured. People were excited to poopsock (which sounds crazy to me, but whatever). If you don't think there's dozens or hundreds of players on the server who are chomping at the bit to beat the other guild, any other guild, on contested content by any means necessary, I think you're delusional. If we were in Luclin, there would be players burning glyphs every single fight and grinding AA just to do it again.

Cukernaut said:

ever since selos youve really embraced those ways and I understand. It’s nuanced in theory the aocs allow secondary guilds to stay competitive longer (which is why a lot of people reference phinny as a competitive server).

the reality is it has always become winner take all which made this whole evolution of a guild split on mischief seem mildly interesting as a change. We’ll see how it plays out.

i think a lot of it just boils down to what your definition of success is and I can say from my time in your guilds they are extremely stable with your operating methodology which is built to persist.

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I mean it doesn’t allow them to remain competitive longer. It largely renders competition completely meaningless.

EQ content up until basically Plane of Time is so non-gear dependent that weekly AoC are more gear than ANY guild needs to beat all available content.

The only competitions that can arguably be said to matter on those servers is server first kills, and Phinny was unique in that there were two guilds that genuinely tried to get them. Most subsequent AoC servers only had one at any given time.

But it’s not just the fact that AoC server competition is meaningless—I like to really stress EQ is not a skill based game. On some level I’ve fully transitioned to angry old Live EQ raider that thinks TLPers are trash. Mainly because it’s all the same apes redoing the same content which all requires 0 skill to complete.

Modern EQ isn’t super hard, but the people that slow rub their peepees over Kunark dragons would be like the WoW equivalent of someone bragging about how he killed Hogger and comparing it to modern Mythic raiding. I’m generally anti-anyone acting hard over EQ. EQ is a very bad game and people should not be proud over anything they do in it.

Sieger said:

Right but there is no glory. And to be honest you have never known the glory either. It's always been weird to me the loudest "reee I wanna batphone" people have been veterans of AoC servers. To me, competition in EQ was about taking things that other guilds desperately needed and that you could block them from acquiring. The last server where this existed were the Ragefire/Lockjaw sister servers. When siliinius kept 4 guilds from even being able to SEE Elemental planes for 4 months, that was dominance. AoC server open world contesting is mostly fanboy bullshit from betas who never played real EQ. Like that's the brutal truth.

I never understood the hot take that Phinny was this mega tough boy server, it had AoCs. AoCs are casual everquest. The top guild to come out of Phinny was OGC, it out lasted AoS by like 4 years and reached live, and they were mostly irrelevant in open world in the AoC era. They cleared every expansion pretty quickly. Other guilds on Phinny did as well. This actually proves that even on a "slow" server without double loot, AoC is more than enough for your guild to complete all content. This means OW is nothing but a diversion.

On the old school TLPs if you didn't win OW mobs you got 0 raid loot. That's the sort of attitude that guilds like TL lived by on Fippy, back when TLPs were hardcore. I frankly have never really understood the people that think OW is a big deal once they introduced AoC. I think if you have a lot of people who want to raid a lot, you should go after OW targets. But you shouldn't really confuse OW eq for anything skill based. Runing an automated tracker is not a skill based activity, bringing 150 people to a DPS race isn't a skill based activity (and I'm saying that as someone who has done both things.) I'm not dismissing open world entirely and I've done plenty of open world raiding, I'm just saying it's been a straight meme on TLP since the day Phinny launched, mostly existing to serve the drama lust of casuals who likely never could have persisted on the old school TLPs.

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Everything you said here is a subjective opinion. He could literally respond that you've never known the glory either. It's like morals in history, they are not a constant. They change and adapt over time. Everyone knows TLP's on the top end is a snowball effect. The guild that starts winning the most generally snowballs with recruitment early on. I don't think this will be true for a server like mischief, but on all other tlp's it was true. You say that that pre-aoc servers, the glory and competition was preventing other guilds from being able to progress. Ok sure, but is that really competition? That just means whichever guild wins early and snowballs, will never lose because they have all the gear. How is that hard-core or competitive? At that time sure it was compared to everything else the game had to offer, but things change. That's like saying a game of football is competitive where one team is in full helmets pads and cleets and the other team is running around barefoot in shorts and a t-shirt. One could argue that OW is far more competitive on AoC servers because losing guilds can still gear through AoC's and be able to compete.

The thing is, people like doing OW because it's something to do in eras where there is not much at all to do. Also tons of people really enjoy DPS races despite what a lot of you try to say. Aradune definitely proved this. Aradune had more dps races on raid mobs than every server phinny and beyond combined. TEB alone has had over 200 DPS races against 12 different guilds. People love it. That's where all their memories are from and their favorite times on the server, from the dps races. That's where the glory comes from today. Do you think a lot of those races the guilds actually thought they were going to win? Probably not, they did it for the fun of it. Maybe they want to see where they parse in comparison. You could argue pre-aoc servers poopsocking mobs that had no hp and insta blew up on spawn was the casual shit and not competitive at all.

As far as OW just being a numbers game, whichever raid having the most people will win and there being no skill to it, that's definitely not entirely true and it's usually the standard go to for the losing side to say this. Maybe back in your day on servers you played on it was where both guilds just mindlessly rushed the mob together, but that's not really the case today in most DPS races. If you're in a guild that decides to DPS race another guild and you have 60 and they have 100 but you didn't get a single person in that top 20 parse, were the numbers even relevant? The skill is all in the leaders calls and the raids ability to listen to those calls and execute. Numbers don't always mean everything. If that were true, then all the times TEB were out numbered we would have lost then right? We would have lost on the dps race where we had 39 vs 90+ right? But we didn't, why?

This is just a devil's advocate alternative perspective. This is also, all a subjective opinion. I do really love though when all the people on this forum try to talk about the state of TLP's and how they actually are when they haven't played the high pop servers since like phinny or agnarr. Things have changed so much since then. And trust me, I completely understand. I also used to be one of those "back in my day" people and "things will never be as hardcore as they were back then" people or the "phinny was the greatest server with the best guilds and best players" people. But then mangler and aradune came around and I realized just how absolute shit at the game and unorganized people from those prior servers were, myself included. That's why so many people on this forum who only played in the old tlp's, or only played phinny, or skipped everything between phinny and selos constantly try to talk shit about mangler and aradune, saying things like no competition etc, because they are trying so hard to hold on to their "glory days" pretending like they were some hot shit. You weren't. I wasn't. No one was. We were all a collective group of absolute dog shit players relative to the ones of today.

Edit: Also to add for the people who posted one raid mobilizes so the other doesn't. Who the fuck cares? Are you that scared to try and potentially lose just because a guild started mobilizing first? We used to sometimes WAIT for a guild to mobilize on a spawn and even give them a head start on numbers in zone before we called the mob just so we could race. Of course that risk blew up in our face a time or two, but it was still fun to try. That's why so many of you talk about no competition on TLP's etc cause of course there is none if you are literally afraid to create it and afraid to lose.

Atabashi is so hardcore he shits on everyone, including himself.

And btw, I'm just playing around. That's not a stab.