Final Fantasy 16

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Hateyou said:
It cusses constantly. One scene very early someone just repeats Fuck over and over like twelve times in a row lol. There’s also brutal murders. Close ups of throats getting slit with blood spraying everywhere, axes to the face, a dad gets murdered in front of his son and his face is covered in dads blood. There’s also sexual scenes.

Another bunch of big departures from previous Final Fantasy games.

The dad getting Ned Stark'd in front of his kid was brutal. Absolutely brutal. Been a while since an FF game made me really feel anything but that kinda did it.

This game takes way more risks than the rest of the series storywise. It's also nice to see characters in Japanese RPGs actually having sexual relationships. Previously every "couple" in these games acted more like roommates, or the relationship would be one-sided with the girl fawning over a guy who acted like he didn't even know she was there, or worse, didn't know what she meant every time she flirted. I chalk these up to being weird Japanese tropes. So yeah, it's nice to see FF16 actually taking risks and treating the audience like adults. The characters treat each other like adults too. It's solid.

Caeden · Jun 27, 2023

Hateyou said:
It cusses constantly. One scene very early someone just repeats Fuck over and over like twelve times in a row lol. There’s also brutal murders. Close ups of throats getting slit with blood spraying everywhere, axes to the face, a dad gets murdered in front of his son and his face is covered in dads blood. There’s also sexual scenes.

Another bunch of big departures from previous Final Fantasy games.

I think the fact it is so adult and doesn’t just pander to a strong black woman character will forever make me forgive the lack of an active battle gauge.

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Hold on a second. Despite that the elementals are a humongous part of the game, there aren't any elemental strengths/weaknesses?

Fira was doing the same damage to Ifrit that Aera was. Same thing on the Garuda fight, didn't think about it that much yet. Really though, FIRA is doing normal damage to IFRIT?

Do they at least have elemental weaknesses on foes? Every FF since FF2 has had elemental weaknesses, and I think even FF1 kinda had them even if they were inconsistent.

Hateyou · Jun 27, 2023

Rajaah said:
Hold on a second. Despite that the elementals are a humongous part of the game, there aren't any elemental strengths/weaknesses?

Fira was doing the same damage to Ifrit that Aera was. Same thing on the Garuda fight, didn't think about it that much yet. Really though, FIRA is doing normal damage to IFRIT?

Do they at least have elemental weaknesses on foes? Every FF since FF2 has had elemental weaknesses, and I think even FF1 kinda had them even if they were inconsistent.

This sounds like a YOU problem. I don’t understand these old FF geezers wanting weaknesses.

Cybsled · Jun 27, 2023

Do they at least have elemental weaknesses on foes? Every FF since FF2 has had elemental weaknesses, and I think even FF1 kinda had them even if they were inconsistent.

Not as far as I know. The game drips out the elements you have access to, so it doesn't make much sense to have elemental damage types when you can't even use elements until later.

They took more of a FF14 approach. FF14 used to have elemental bonuses/mitigation like older MMOs used to, then they jettisoned that years ago. While elemental damage nerfs or bonuses sounds good on paper, it kind of blows in practice since you're forced to play what is optimal instead of what is fun/enjoyable.

Hateyou · Jun 27, 2023

Joking aside I don’t mind no weaknesses. The elemental weakness stuff in FF7r was terrible. Couldn’t know a weakness beforehand and you didn’t have many slots til the end of the game so you just had to hope you had the right one equipped. Pretty shit design tbh. If they would’ve allowed on the fly reslotting materia it would’ve been ok but they didn’t so it just sucked.

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Yeah I don't mind either, it's just strange after all these games to have Fira do full damage to an Ifrit or a Bomb.

Cybsled · Jun 27, 2023

I'd rather that then Vanilla WoW Molten Core when half your abilities did no damage because they made everything immune to fire damage

bolok · Jun 28, 2023

Chris said:
He is right though, the only legitimate point "old FF players" have is the combat being a different style.

The series is wildly inconsistent in what "RPG elements" it offers.

Which FF game rewarded exploration? The earlier games punished you with mazes to get you into random battles, otherwise you just got short detours with a chest at the end.

Which FF game had interesting loot and crafting? Almost all have slightly incremented +attack and +defence equipment in the next town.

Which FF game had more complex character building choices?

People usually say they like FF9, that's got very little of the above lol and includes food themed side quests like "Steiner eats Onions".

It's always a mix of things that ultimately are satisfying or not.

The combat being a (very) different style is THE relevant difference. I'll say it again. Even 12 with the weird AI shit had the option to revert it to the good old scheme. The rest of the garbage you're bringing up are just plusses or minuses to how good a FF game it is.

Thats a ff game. You can change the words/options and how often you have to or need to make an input. But that stupid finger and the beep beep while your choosing your options... THAT is FF. If it ceases being a jrpg- it no longer should wear the name.

Rajaah said:
If it didn't play like freaking Devil May Cry, people wouldn't be complaining.

(And I love DMC)

Well it's far better that it plays like DMC than ff15. But both are fails for a FF imo.

Merrith said:
Now they still feel like FF to everyone, with time comes a lot more acceptance. Not saying specifically to you, but to many people. At the time, people were up in arms about these things as well. The internet is just even more the internet as time goes on.

MM i lived through the usenet flamewars about most of those transitions. I get what you're saying. But i didn't get that same sense at the time. There was uproar about the setting and themes. But I don't remember anything like an outright rejection of it as a FF.

Merrith said:
That all depends how you view the word Remake. The way the "angry" fans describe it, it's just the highest form of Remaster. Plenty of us who love the OG liked the idea of actually Remaking the 7 story...plus they've told us/hinted to us they were going to do that all along.

I'm less upset about them changing the story than the gameplay. However the initial pitch and subsequent info didn't do them any favors.

joz123 · Jun 28, 2023

bolok said:
The combat being a (very) different style is THE relevant difference. I'll say it again. Even 12 with the weird AI shit had the option to revert it to the good old scheme. The rest of the garbage you're bringing up are just plusses or minuses to how good a FF game it is.
View attachment 480173
Thats a ff game. You can change the words/options and how often you have to or need to make an input. But that stupid finger and the beep beep while your choosing your options... THAT is FF. If it ceases being a jrpg- it no longer should wear the name.

Well it's far better that it plays like DMC than ff15. But both are fails for a FF imo.

MM i lived through the usenet flamewars about most of those transitions. I get what you're saying. But i didn't get that same sense at the time. There was uproar about the setting and themes. But I don't remember anything like an outright rejection of it as a FF.

I'm less upset about them changing the story than the gameplay. However the initial pitch and subsequent info didn't do them any favors.

So FF7R isn't FF as well?

bolok · Jun 28, 2023

Cybsled said:
I'd rather that then Vanilla WoW Molten Core when half your abilities did no damage because they made everything immune to fire damage

Why have different abilities then? Just literally have one that gets + gooder

bolok · Jun 28, 2023

joz123 said:
So FF7R isn't FF as well?

For me, no. I got it for "free" via ps+ whatevers. I played till a couple hours past getting tifa and then bounced. Wasn't worth playing though gameplay that i didn't enjoy.

Chris · Jun 28, 2023

Rude said:
At least Chris sticks to his guns as a counter edgelord LARP. Speaking of, since Chris is carbon copying @Mist 's current political debating trajectory, I think the easiest retort is to tell you to suck a dick.

I don't know what you mean.

Some people are just so entrenched in their views that they see any other point of view as purposefully trolling, Ukraine thread is full of it.

It's the same mode of thinking liberals use when they call everything they don't like "fake news".

Rajaah · Jun 28, 2023

Chris said:
I don't know what you mean.

Some people are just so entrenched in their views that they see any other point of view as purposefully trolling, Ukraine thread is full of it.

It's the same mode of thinking liberals use when they call everything they don't like "fake news".

Conservatives also call news they don't like "fake news", then there's people like me in the middle calling the entire MSM "fake news" because it is very much fake fucking news. Tonight I tried to think of a major story from the past week that wasn't at least partially bullshit and almost drew a blank. The submarine maybe?

Anyway I really hope FF17 goes back to being more traditional FF, and think FF16 would be better received if it were Stranger of Paradise 2 instead.

And FF7R felt just enough like an FF game to count. The battles slowed to an almost-stop when you went to enter a command or choose a spell. Not only did that look awesome, it was just enough to give the game an old-school FF battle feeling. No such thing in FF16, matter of fact spells are rapid-fire chip-damage like the guns in DMC. It's so weird.

Still enjoying the game though. Had a hard time putting it down this evening. Last thing I did: Unlocked limit breaks and fought the bad guys in the slaughtered village. Game is dark.

Cybsled · Jun 28, 2023

Kinda gets back to Jesse Cox's video: You don't like those changes, but maybe other people do. I hated the gameplay in Fallout 1+2, but I loved the 3D reworks for the franchise Fallout3 and onward. Any change in a game can risk alienating old fans, but it can also bring in new fans.

It's still Final Fantasy, it just isn't in a very specific style that certain fans consider mandatory

Merrith · Jun 28, 2023

Rude said:
Ah right, he was promoted so that means the work he did previously, which is the subject of the conversation, is actually decoupled from him. Extending on that, the combat sucking dick and the shitty fan fiction integration is also a nonstarter for negatives. Stick to eating paint chips, you retard.

No, but the idea that the entire project is going to go down the exact same hole as another one he was in charge of is just a massive assumption, and yet people continue to spout it as if there is no other possible end result. Granted, you definitely need to cling to this like Linus and his blanket. If you keep telling yourself the combat was bad, maybe it'll actually be true? Seems like 99% of the people who weren't complete shit at it enjoyed the combat (same for 16, to nobody's surprise).

Stick to bringing up Chris from other threads, you only sound mostly like your opinion is worthless, instead of completely worthless like it is most of the time.

Merrith · Jun 28, 2023

Rajaah said:
And FF7R felt just enough like an FF game to count. The battles slowed to an almost-stop when you went to enter a command or choose a spell. Not only did that look awesome, it was just enough to give the game an old-school FF battle feeling. No such thing in FF16, matter of fact spells are rapid-fire chip-damage like the guns in DMC. It's so weird.

It's ironic you point this out, b/c I liked to map commands to shortcuts when playing that game so the combat wouldn't pause all the time save for when I was really trying to chain together some commands from multiple party members. Granted, that was part of their plan to have both those options in the game...although the complete turn based disciples were still not happy with that.

There are times when 16's combat will slow down, landing precision dodges/counters will slow the game slightly, and if you can land a Parry it will really slow an enemy down for a couple of seconds, similar to inputting a command normally in 7R. Also during ultimate casts you can still swap active eikon powers, allowing you to set up the next part of your combo while the stagger bar is paused.

I find the magic spam to be mostly not worth the time, as the upgraded Charge Magic is quick enough to cast fairly fast, and it'll actually chip off stagger bar in a noticeable way where the weak magic spam just doesn't (either health or stagger).

Chris · Jun 28, 2023

I prefer the FF7R combat but the combat in this keeps getting better.

I would like a game with a really deep job system and FF10 style tactical turn based gameplay. In the current era of high def 3D graphics they need to reinvent it for it to work, lining up on one side of the battlefield isn't enough anymore.

Merrith · Jun 28, 2023

bolok said:
MM i lived through the usenet flamewars about most of those transitions. I get what you're saying. But i didn't get that same sense at the time. There was uproar about the setting and themes. But I don't remember anything like an outright rejection of it as a FF.

I'm less upset about them changing the story than the gameplay. However the initial pitch and subsequent info didn't do them any favors.

I got the same sense, especially with the hate on 12. Setting and themes is a bit ironic in this case, as part of the idea with 16 was to take it back to medieval setting/fantasy. But just like the internet/social media has evolved, so has the dogpiling and lining up on one side or the other.

We see it all the time with movies and TV shows, as well. Beyond even the "woke" "anti-woke" sides review bombing whichever stuff they don't like. Every new episode of major shows or big movie release gets chopped up and broken down to whatever detail people can think of to jump on it for.

Curious what you mean by initial pitch and subsequent info? The definitely stated/hinted at changes (including gameplay) even as far back as 2015.

Qhue · Jun 28, 2023

No spoilers but I don't feel like I'm playing FFXVI so much as 'watching' it. The gear makes no damn sense, the abilities are an IQ check, and the side quests are beyond insipid. Nearly all the major 'tactical' decisions in major battles are made for me by a series of QuickTime Events.

Do you ever actually choose who is in your 'party'? So far its all been auto-grouping, which is okay, but you could be forgiven for even remembering that Jill, for example, is even in the group. I see some special effects now and then but I honestly can't rely on her to do a damn thing.

I was enjoying the overall story, but it is really starting to challenge the structural integrity of plausible deniability.

Final Fantasy 16

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