German

McCheese · Nov 24, 2014

I'm not Quinloe, but I believe it's because of the accusative case changes for words. Buch is neuter (Das) while Apfel is masculine (Der), and in the accusative only the masculine words need to change. So for a masculine noun, you change Der to Den and ein to einen, sein to seinen, etc., but for a neuter noun you don't have to change the form of the words (i.e., Das stays Das, ein stays ein, etc.).

Quineloe · Nov 25, 2014

What mccheese said.

A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2 Grammatik Possessivartikel Tabelle: sein, seine, seinen, seinem, seiner

Blazin · Nov 25, 2014

Thanks guys. My German studies have turned into more time spent on grammar than vocab, but I want to get it right even it takes longer. Appreciate the help.

Ronaan · Nov 25, 2014

German is funny like that.
Our apples are male so you use the male possessive whateverthing I never really liked German lessons.
Books are neuters.
Carrots are female btw so it would be "Er isst seine Karotte" in that case.

edit: damnit late. Yeah, what they said.

Blazin · Nov 25, 2014

Colloquially how is the formal vs informal applied. In the US we have eliminated over time most formal words and we use informal 90% of the time. Du bist vs Sie sind for example, does your average German on the street still follow these rules?

iannis · Nov 25, 2014

We sort of do have the same thing in english, roughly, it's just wordchoice and idiom based instead of being codified into the grammar and syntax.

I think they handle it about the same way. As in you'll want to know how to talk like you're not an idiot because sometimes you'll need to. But usually you'll just talk like an idiot.

Dyvim · Nov 25, 2014

Blazin_sl said:
Colloquially how is the formal vs informal applied. In the US we have eliminated over time most formal words and we use informal 90% of the time. Du bist vs Sie sind for example, does your average German on the street still follow these rules?

Yes its still a thing. Mostly sympathy based.
Higher ups (social rank, elderly) and customers/guests are adressed formally unless you would know them before hand, by hanging out together or since childhood.
Notably exception: Preteenagers and pets are always informally adressed.

Ronaan · Nov 26, 2014

Dyvim_sl said:
Yes its still a thing. Mostly sympathy based.
Higher ups (social rank, elderly) and customers/guests are adressed formally unless you would know them before hand, by hanging out together or since childhood.
Notably exception: Preteenagers and pets are always informally adressed.

This and also some circles with the same sport / hobby / whatever. You don't use the formal version when talking to someone in the cafeteria of the climbing gym for example.

And then there's the little village I live in, population: 80, yeah, nobody uses the formal versions either. You live there, you're one of the pack.

Pyratec · Dec 1, 2014

Quineloe_sl said:
What mccheese said.

A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2 Grammatik Possessivartikel Tabelle: sein, seine, seinen, seinem, seiner

Best of luck with this Blazin, this is my biggest problem with German. Knowing whether a it should be ein, eine, einem, einen, einer, eines, etc. is very difficult and either requires a lot of memorization to know which case a verb is, or a lot of practice. I've been working in a German speaking environment for a few months now and I was kinda hoping it would get better but I'm still struggling with it. Out of politeness people don't correct me all that often either.

And often when I ask people why a certain thing is that way the answer is 'es ist halt so' or 'klingt richtig so' which doesnt help me too much. I salute your dedication because I can tell you if I didn't live in a German speaking place I would have given up on the language a while ago.

McCheese · Dec 1, 2014

I found the biggest help for me when learning a case-heavy language like German (Russian, which has 6 cases) was to study grammar in English. It helps a TON when you understand what a direct object, indirect object, subject, verb, modal verb, preposition, etc. are. Being able to look at a sentence and know "Ok, this is my subject so this word should be in the nominative case, and this other word is the direct object of my verb so that should be in the accusative case, and over here I have the indirect object, so that will be in the dative case. This is a preposition, and I know that this specific preposition takes the genitive case, so I need to change this word" is really helpful, I think. Granted, there is still a lot of memorization and practice needed, and not everything fits nicely into rules, but having that overarching understanding of basic grammar is huge, imo.

Ichu · Dec 1, 2014

I found this book useful.

Amazon.com: English Grammar for Students of German: The Study Guide for Those Learning German (English Grammar Series) (9780934034388): Cecile Zorach, Charlotte Melin, Elizabeth A. Kautz, Jacqueline Morton: Books

Blazin · Dec 1, 2014

Thanks Ichu, going to need it.

Just had my mind blown by learning the definite article in the feminine dative case is der (the masculine nominative case). I swear they put this together in a manner just to fuck with you. I'm having a hard time explaining these rules to my kids without them losing interest in the complexity. They are doing so well studying German every day, the grammar makes it hard to not overwhelm them.

iannis · Dec 1, 2014

Grammar is the hard part. If you can get that then vocabulary is nothing. And for an english speaker german grammar is convoluted as hell.

What's funny is that for a german speaker, I've heard them make the exact same complaint about English.

Dyvim · Dec 1, 2014

Yeah grammar is the hard part, most vocab is similar enough to get the hang of it.
Also every language has its grammar hurdles imho, English has its past progressive tenses, Latin its 6 cases, or you need to learn some kyrilic letters to even start learing Russian/Greek/whatever. German has its 3 genders stuff for both nouns and adjectives bound to 4 cases with almost no strict word order and whole a lotta grammar exceptions.

Also "es ist halt so" is just a lame excuse for not knowing why its the way it is. Although there certainly are some word structures that are used for no specific reason.
eg: Gesteinsbrocken (chunk of stone) vs. Mehlbrocken (lump of flour) where does the s come from in the former? No idea, sounds better or its the way it is.

Ronaan · Dec 2, 2014

Iannis_sl said:
Grammar is the hard part. If you can get that then vocabulary is nothing. And for an english speaker german grammar is convoluted as hell.

What's funny is that for a german speaker, I've heard them make the exact same complaint about English.

I got along in English just fine most of the time, French though, they really know how to fuck a language up.

Dyvim · Dec 2, 2014

Also counting in french is like solving a simple math equation. Retarded as hell.

Pyratec · Dec 9, 2014

Dyvim_sl said:
Also counting in french is like solving a simple math equation. Retarded as hell.

Please, numbers in German are all kinds of fucked up. Acht und zwanzig for twenty eight is just wrong. When people tell me telephone numbers here I have to tell them to give me single numbers at a time, not drei und funfzig, vier und sechzig etc. I always get messed up, is it 35 or 53, 46 or 64?!?! Even after five years here I still struggle with that.

Blazin · Jan 14, 2015

New question . Can a German speaker please explain to me how they would translate the difference between:

Der Mann riecht an der Milch.
vs.
Der Mann riecht die Milch

Obviously I can slap this into google translate but it hasn't taken long to figure out that google translate is lacking in it's ability to properly convey how a native speaker would express an idea.

I don't understand this where does the "an" come from. So far I've learned to use "an" for "on" when referencing a vertical surface and "auf" on a horizontal. Is this just an oddity of the verb riecht?

Dyvim · Jan 14, 2015

Essentially both sentences mean the same. Man smelling milk. While the first one actually translates to the man is smelling at the milk(box).

Main difference would be the indication of action in each sentence.
"an der Milch" implies he takes action via leading a cup/box/glass/whatever next to his nose or bending over so his nose is next to whatever contains milk actually.

"riecht Milk" implies the action (smell) comes to the man (who may have been unaware of it before), like the smell wavering through the air till it hits the mans nose.

Blazin · Feb 9, 2015

Is this the same issue of action?

If I want to say They are watching a movie

Sie sehen sich einen Film an. (Im learning this as the correct way)

but why not the simpler

Sie sehen einen Film?

I really dont understand the use of sich and an in the first example.

I get sich being a reflexive pronoun for themselves but not why its being used.

(Forgive my lack of apostrophes when my keyboard is on German I suck at finding the punctuation marks)

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