ToeMissile
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For me, it basically comes down to respect. I wouldn"t want someone I was in a relationship to cheat on me, I won"t do it to them.
Girls who broke your heart thread
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There is no logical reason not to cheat.Dabamf said:
Its fun and our manly instincts tell us to keep the human race going. End of story.
But the reason people dont like it and dont do it is simple: Respect.
Dandain
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I think its a lot simpler than respect. The easiest person in the world to lie to is yourself. I think that the more you practice deceiving yourself the simpler it becomes. If you enter into a relationship and the agreement you make is to be monogamous you do it. Not because you"re beholden to the other person but because you should be beholden to yourself. The side effect is that you get to experience potentially this relationship with another person but you also get to be at ease internally.
For some people, monogamy doesn"t interest them, and from where I sit that"s fine. But don"t bullshit another person and say you desire that type of relationship when you don"t. I think people pay for self deception in the end more harshly than the attempted or actual deception of others. The ride is fun and we all think we won"t get caught, but eventually shit hits the fan. Unintended consequences and all.
Lot of folks gravitate to relationships, careers, or activities that define them in ways that their social circles recognize as "successful" and meet some kind of standard to be measured against even if those choices are not ones you would natively make given any choice being available. Houses of cards blow down in the wind, but people can and do live large quantities of their lives wrapped in self delusion and self justification.
For some people, monogamy doesn"t interest them, and from where I sit that"s fine. But don"t bullshit another person and say you desire that type of relationship when you don"t. I think people pay for self deception in the end more harshly than the attempted or actual deception of others. The ride is fun and we all think we won"t get caught, but eventually shit hits the fan. Unintended consequences and all.
Lot of folks gravitate to relationships, careers, or activities that define them in ways that their social circles recognize as "successful" and meet some kind of standard to be measured against even if those choices are not ones you would natively make given any choice being available. Houses of cards blow down in the wind, but people can and do live large quantities of their lives wrapped in self delusion and self justification.
Relax buddy. I even said that if girls could have emotion-free sex, there is no reason why my future wife shouldn"t cheat on me. I"m seeing both sides. Also, intellectualization isn"t a defense mechanism when you aren"t protecting yourself from anything. I"m not looking for justification for a past act or looking for a green light for a future act. I"m actuallylooking for a red light. I"ve thought for a long time about it, and have been unable to find one.Rune said:
Drop the categorical imperatives. They don"t exist. It"s wrong, it"s betrayal, it"s sleazy, etc. If you use one as a reason whyyoudon"t cheat, good for you but I"m not interested in hearing it. I"m only interested in hearing the pure reason behind why it isbest for the personto not cheat in their own relationship.
Spoilering my reason behind the premise I list below. If you want to challenge that particular premise, please at least read the spoiler. If you agree with it, don"t bother to read the spoiler.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
First lets talk about having sex with another person while in a relationship. Why do we care if our partners are monogamous? Is it a rational desire? Some of it is, such as we don"t want to get a disease or unknowingly raise a baby that isn"t ours. We also don"t want our partner to leave us for someone else, or be tempted to, since sleeping around opens them up to be able to get to know the opposite sex better.(Are there other reasons I"m missing?)But even if you removed those risks somehow, it certainly wouldn"t remove our desire to have a monogamous partner. So there is something else there.
Instinct. We are genetically wired to want monogamous partners. This aspect of our desire isn"t necessarily rational because it comes from our genes, from circumstances that aren"t necessarily the same as today, not a rational thought process. Back in the day, if your woman screwed around she could have another man"s baby in place of your own, hurting your gene pool. If your man screwed around, his resources would be more divided amongst offspring that are not your own, limiting the resources your own offspring can receive. There are more, but this will suffice. This can also explain why men would prefer their wife emotionally cheat on them rather than physically, and women would prefer their husband physically cheat on them rather than emotionally (from a psych study, not 100% of men/women but a majority). Men"s gene pool gets hurt if their woman carries another baby, women"s gene pool gets hurt if their man stops taking care of them.
The thing is, the instinct is WAY stronger than the rational desires. Have you ever had bareback sex with a stranger or before your girlfriend is tested? I have. I was angry at myself for putting myself at std/pregnancy risk, but I would have been WAY more angry if my gf cheated on me with a virgin using both BC/condom. This says that the emotion felt from being cheated on is significantly worse than the tangible risks of what cheating generally entails, since I would care way more about cheating with next to no chance of real world consequences than I would about actually having a good chance of facing those consequences.
Essentially, if we could theoretically remove any chance of disease, pregnancy, or being left, we would still HATE to be cheated on. This says that our desire for our partner to be monogamous is primarily based on instinctual & evolutionarily-derived (and thus irrational) reasons.
Premise: The strong need to have one"s partner be monogamous is primarily instinctual & evolutionarily-derived (and thus irrational), rather than based on rational desires.
Therefore, if you can remove any chance at your partner finding out (which also includes pregnancy/disease since your partner would likely find out about those things), you can eliminate any consequences to them from your cheating.
Therefore, if you remove any chance of your partner finding out, there is no reason not to cheat.
There are some key points here that I"m relying on:
(1) There are scenarios in which you can remove the risk of disease & pregnancy with your mistress/manlover.
(2)Cheating on your wife/husband will not give you a guilty conscience (thus interfering with your relationship, which is more important).
(3)More?
Please try to refrain from shitting up a possible discussion with anger. If my post angers you, remind yourself thatI am not trying to justify a past or future action, and I am actually looking and hoping someone finds a hole in my reasoning. I have not nor do I intend to cheat on anyone, ever.This is purely an intellectual question.
So if my reasoning is incorrect somewhere or if you object to one of my premises (stated, or unstated), I"m interested in hearing it. Or if there"s another factor I"m not considering. Please be specific though.
Well, I don"t think you have to lie to yourself in order to lie to another person. But you touched on something else, that constantly deceiving someone else takes a toll on you in some other way, no matter what, and you end up worse off because of it? Could you elaborate on that?Dandain said:
Dandain
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I think that being dishonest to yourself is personally the most destructive thing you can do in your life to yourself. And I don"t mean big issues alone.
If you say to yourself "I am going to go to the gym 3 times a week." And when the time you set aside comes around you say "I can"t/won"t/shouldn"t go because of dishonest (remember to self) reason x/y/z". I think that over time such deceptions become simpler because we externalize our excuses and we never actually end up owning those we are capable of owning.
Many people become demotivated or depressed because their own self image becomes damaged when they fail to live up to even those standards they set for themselves. Of course people can be chasing standards placed on them by others, but the point remains that if you consistently violate the standards you place on yourself there is a cost.
This blurs your ability to determine when events are or aren"t in your control distorts your ability to act in a way that"s best for yourself. Not to mention the need to create a new set of standards that more accurately justifies your behavior.
I think that in regards to relationships that often times what we do or say especially in our own minds is used to justify whatever action we end up choosing. If that"s cheating, marriage, monogomy, or arguing over who does the dishes. We have to maintain a structure of who we THINK we should be as an individual even to ourselves. We need coherence in our own identity, whatever we decide our identity to be.
edit: No, you don"t have to lie to yourself to lie to someone else. However, a relationship is an agreement that you have with someone else and as such both parties owe each other the honest terms of the agreement. The most damaging relationships we have in society are ones with hidden costs and agendas, and we are taught to ignore our honesty because that"s the game our society plays. If any relationship is unequal, the one with more power gets to decide if honesty is valued, punished, or ignored. I.E. The boss who will listen to criticism about how you are being treated, and the one who fires you or makes your life so miserable you quit.
If you say to yourself "I am going to go to the gym 3 times a week." And when the time you set aside comes around you say "I can"t/won"t/shouldn"t go because of dishonest (remember to self) reason x/y/z". I think that over time such deceptions become simpler because we externalize our excuses and we never actually end up owning those we are capable of owning.
Many people become demotivated or depressed because their own self image becomes damaged when they fail to live up to even those standards they set for themselves. Of course people can be chasing standards placed on them by others, but the point remains that if you consistently violate the standards you place on yourself there is a cost.
This blurs your ability to determine when events are or aren"t in your control distorts your ability to act in a way that"s best for yourself. Not to mention the need to create a new set of standards that more accurately justifies your behavior.
I think that in regards to relationships that often times what we do or say especially in our own minds is used to justify whatever action we end up choosing. If that"s cheating, marriage, monogomy, or arguing over who does the dishes. We have to maintain a structure of who we THINK we should be as an individual even to ourselves. We need coherence in our own identity, whatever we decide our identity to be.
edit: No, you don"t have to lie to yourself to lie to someone else. However, a relationship is an agreement that you have with someone else and as such both parties owe each other the honest terms of the agreement. The most damaging relationships we have in society are ones with hidden costs and agendas, and we are taught to ignore our honesty because that"s the game our society plays. If any relationship is unequal, the one with more power gets to decide if honesty is valued, punished, or ignored. I.E. The boss who will listen to criticism about how you are being treated, and the one who fires you or makes your life so miserable you quit.
I absolutely agree with this, and your entire post as well.Dandain said:
But I"m missing where deceiving someone else necessarily means deceiving yourself.
Dandain
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It technically doesn"t, but for the implications of this thread what kind of relationship do you want? That"s up for everyone to decide obviously, but if honesty isn"t a bedrock then what do you actually have?
If you and your gf/wife want a relationship where you both have the ability to have one night stands with strangers in cities you do not live in then I"m great and fine with that. If you want a relationship where your wife doesn"t, but you do I"m also fine with that.
What is damaging, is that when you fail to disclose what you desire out of a relationship, what"s to stop your wife/gf/harem from doing the same? Quite simply, What would you say that if 5 years into your marriage you find out that when your wife travels on business for her job, she bangs some other guy, or even just has a night on the town where this dude takes her to the theatre as like a romantic night out? If she said "Look, the dude doesn"t live in the same city/country/zip code/planet, I didn"t think you"d ever find out he doesn"t even speak your language?" Is that a reasonable justification? Or would you feel betrayed because she failed to disclose all of the terms of your marriage, which apparently included being railed by someone who isn"t you?
Now, the point here is not to place some kind of universal value on monogamy, but one on honesty. There is vulnerability in a relationship with another person because both parties are giving up a portion of their freedom for something that both see as mutually beneficial.
If you and your gf/wife want a relationship where you both have the ability to have one night stands with strangers in cities you do not live in then I"m great and fine with that. If you want a relationship where your wife doesn"t, but you do I"m also fine with that.
What is damaging, is that when you fail to disclose what you desire out of a relationship, what"s to stop your wife/gf/harem from doing the same? Quite simply, What would you say that if 5 years into your marriage you find out that when your wife travels on business for her job, she bangs some other guy, or even just has a night on the town where this dude takes her to the theatre as like a romantic night out? If she said "Look, the dude doesn"t live in the same city/country/zip code/planet, I didn"t think you"d ever find out he doesn"t even speak your language?" Is that a reasonable justification? Or would you feel betrayed because she failed to disclose all of the terms of your marriage, which apparently included being railed by someone who isn"t you?
Now, the point here is not to place some kind of universal value on monogamy, but one on honesty. There is vulnerability in a relationship with another person because both parties are giving up a portion of their freedom for something that both see as mutually beneficial.
Eomer
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Well yeah, that"s kind of self evident. But it also goes against what you"re saying. I think? You seem to be arguing that there"s no reason NOT to cheat if you"re in a committed relationship and the other person can"t find out. But now you"re saying you shouldn"t be in that relationship to begin with if you want to fuck around. Which I totally agree with.Dabamf said:
So I"m kind of confused about what you"re getting at, really. Serial monogamy?
Well, most of my points are kind of on the sideline of the main point I"m trying to make. And I will spoiler that point because I don"t wanna ruin the surprise:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:I am not Dandain
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:I am not Dandain
Brad2770
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I am going to disagree here. A lot of my problems stem from the fact that I cannot lie to myself. I think it really depends on the person.Dandain said:
As for cheating, everyone knows it"s wrong. Some people will never do it, some will only do it if the circumstances are perfect and others get their rocks off on cheating. Again, it depends on the person.
When your emotionally controlled thoughts over whelm your rationally controlled thoughts, that"s when you will give in. I.E. Self control.
But man are also wired not to be monogamous themselves. Or so I thought. Anyway, I donotthink you are wrong. Emotions ("guilt" is a good example in this case) are there to help our decision-making in order to survive. Our instincts and emotions have such a strong influence on our behaviour, more than most people realize. We rationalize it, we make up reasons why we did act they way we did.. but in the end its survival instinct.Dabamf said:
Yet I still think "Respect" is the answer for your question. Lets take another example. You go out with some friends and meet a girl one of your friends is kinda dating but nothing is fixed yet. Basicly she is still available. Maybe she even signals interest in you. Why dont you hit on her or make out with her when your friend isnt around? He had to go early for some reason and he"d never find out you showed her your place later that night.
You just dont do it. Because you respect him. If you dont respect him, you might consider doing it. Of course, you can also boil it down to not endangering a friendship which can proof useful later on, etc. But even if you know he wouldnt even mind, you will not do it. (Or at least I hope so)
Sadly my english skills are too limited to explain is properly. I hope that example is enough to make my point.
You called a mine a depth charge, were called out on it, and then went all LULZ YOU DUMMIES I TROLLED USutekh said:
I thought it was funny given the comic you posted.