GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Quineloe said:

and yet The Long Night is 8.0 on imdb.

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Not that 8.0 is that amazing, but I can understand it for that episode. If you had a decent TV and could see stuff, most normies had less of an issue with that episode than they did the last one or last two. Non book readers didn't have to deal with Azor Ahai being nothing important at all, etc. Many show watchers LOVE Arya, too.

I'm not sure how we can logically jump from killing insurgents and cutting off the heads of the enemies in charge, to decimating an entire city and killing everyone in it, including civilians.

The former happens throughout all of GoT. The latter is despotic. In the scene above they were trying to warn her about the potential consequences of killing a specific enemy without fair trial, she was never considering burning the entire city to the ground. Nobody, outside of the Dothraki, would have ever followed her if they thought that is how she would turn out.

This "evidence" that keeps getting posted isn't evidence of a descent into madness at all. It's normal GoT politics.

it's not that it's a mirror action, it's that she has to be convinced to have a fair trial instead of just burning everything down.

i mean.. just think about it... she has to be CONVINCED... to have a FAIR TRIAL. that's the point. she has ALWAYS leaned on heavy handed justice.

edit: don't take this as defending HOW it was depicted on the show. i think it was fairly disingenuous to everyone involved. i'm just defending the point that some of this was telegraphed for a long time. i said it before, i had hoped that her character arc would end with her rising ABOVE the legacy of her father, and so in order for that to mean anything, there needed to be some evidence that she was actually tempted not to.

How do you get that she was considering burning it all down from that scene? What were you watching? That scene is nothing but council on political maneuvering when it comes to removing an insurgency. She wants to kill the Sons of Harpies, and the opposition to that idea isn't even telling her not to, they are telling her to have a trial first.

Throughout the entirety of her rise to power she sought council, weighed the consequences, and acted in the interest of preserving support. Tyrants to do not seek council, they let their violent predilections consume them without regard for consequence.

Dany didn't show this until these last two episodes. Really only the last 10 minutes of episode 4 and on. These scenes some of you keep insisting are foreshadowing aren't foreshadowing at all. There have been a plethora of similar council scenes with every leader in the world of GoT. From Rob Stark to Jon Snow to Cersei and everyone else. She doesn't react to said council in a way that suggests she is a despot until episode 5 when she's talking to Tyrion. And the catalyst for that rapid descent is hollow, rushed and confusing.

Alex said:

Fucking hell Chuk. Your level of retardation is baffling at times. I imagine you're one of those motherfuckers that can never figure out the machines to get out of a parking garage.

Change it to 50 fucking years man. The original point was you could Rip Van Winkle for 200 years in 1150 and it would appear nothing changed. Nothing was really being innovated for a really fucking long time back then and someone hyperbole'ed the 10 year mark in modern tech. Stop being so fucking obtuse. Goddammit your level of idiocy pisses me off sometimes.

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So, NOW you guys all agree with me, the core plot conceit of Altered Carbon was fucking retarded.

Merrith said:

Not that 8.0 is that amazing, but I can understand it for that episode. If you had a decent TV and could see stuff, most normies had less of an issue with that episode than they did the last one or last two. Non book readers didn't have to deal with Azor Ahai being nothing important at all, etc. Many show watchers LOVE Arya, too.

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Well, people *did* see what happened in episodes 4 and 5, and those got 6.1 and 6.7 rating.

Khane said:

How do you get that she was considering burning it all down from that scene? What were you watching? That scene is nothing but council on political maneuvering when it comes to removing an insurgency. She wants to kill the Sons of Harpies, and the opposition to that idea isn't even telling her not to, they are telling her to have a trial first.

Throughout the entirety of her rise to power she sought council, weighed the consequences, and acted in the interest of preserving support. Tyrants to do not seek council, they let their violent predilections consume them without regard for consequence.

Dany didn't show this until these last two episodes. Really only the last 10 minutes of episode 4 and on. These scenes some of you keep insisting are foreshadowing aren't foreshadowing at all. There have been a plethora of similar council scenes with every leader in the world of GoT. From Rob Stark to Jon Snow to Cersei and everyone else. She doesn't react to said council in a way that suggests she is a despot until episode 5 when she's talking to Tyrion. And the catalyst for that rapid descent is hollow, rushed and confusing.

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she wants to kill the sons of the harpies because they disagree with her. the sons of the harpies showed up as a response to HER just up and demanding people conform to her vision. remember, she has NO authority in mereen. she just saw (what she felt) was an injustice and conquered the place on her way to westeros. it was a side quest. there was NO nuance to her takeover and there was no real attempt at diplomacy. she feels she has "divine" authority given to her by her station as "mother of dragons."

so when people don't buy into that authority, it challenges her entire identity and that's just simply unacceptable to her. her response to the sons of the harpies isn't to hear them out and try to understand why they would want slavery back... when someone asks "why would they even WANT slavery back" she just dismisses it out of hand. ("some people just want to have power over others." like YOU dany? like YOU want power over others?). she doesn't want to hear the harpies out because she's right, she's always been right, she'll always be right and if they don't agree with her, it only incriminates them and shows they need to be conquered.

so barriston, who was the only one to FIRST HAND see what her father was like, wants her to have a fair trial. he's NOT saying, we should kill them, but have a fair trial first. because that's not a fair trial. he's saying, let's stop talking about killing them and hear them out and THEN decide what's best.

listen, i get that you think dany is the greatest and that her heel turn is OUTTA NOWHERE but it just... it wasn't. at all.

What you just outlined is normal political maneuvering in the world of GoT. Every would be usurper has gone through similar political turmoil throughout the entirety of the show. The logical leap you are making to connect dots that don't exist is astounding.

Barristan was eventually killed by the Sons of the Harpy, they were murdering her followers, and you somehow think her wanting to kill them for their actions is tyrannical. They were trying to kill her.

alright, let's just leave it at this. myself and MANY other people just were not surprised by dany's actions. frustrated, yes, but not surprised. if you believe that this is out of character for her, that's fine. i don't. i can point to all the parts in the show that made me think something was up with her, and you can say that i'm delusional for seeing anything. but at the end of the day, out of the two of us, one of us saw what was coming and one of us didn't.

j00t said:

alright, let's just leave it at this. myself and MANY other people just were not surprised by dany's actions. frustrated, yes, but not surprised. if you believe that this is out of character for her, that's fine. i don't. i can point to all the parts in the show that made me think something was up with her, and you can say that i'm delusional for seeing anything. but at the end of the day, out of the two of us, one of us saw what was coming and one of us didn't.

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I saw what was coming because of the hamfisted plot "developments" in episodes 4 and 5. You acting like you knew this was coming since season 5 and acting like the rest of us are just blind is ridiculous.

I can't find the compilation now, but someone put together all the scenes over the years where either Dany or someone else foreshadowed her going crazy and burning everything. So if one could actually recall all those scenes, one shouldn't be surprised by her actions. What the writers fucked up though was decompressing and evolving her descent into lunacy, but since they tried to jam too much plot into too little time, it all comes off as jarring and unbelievable.

Khane said:

I saw what was coming because of the hamfisted plot "developments" in episodes 4 and 5. You acting like you knew this was coming since season 5 and acting like the rest of us are just blind is ridiculous.

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i saw this coming from season 1. i know that's absurd to you, but i did. i obviously didn't know the exacts, or that it'd be THE end plot, but i knew HER story was going to revolve around the actions of her father. either she'd succumb to the targaryn crazy or she'd rise above it.

Imagine the 17 additional bad episodes we could have had if they hadn't been hired to run Star Wars into the ground even more than it's already been.

j00t said:

i saw this coming from season 1. i know that's absurd to you, but i did. i obviously didn't know the exacts, or that it'd be THE end plot, but i knew HER story was going to revolve around the actions of her father. either she'd succumb to the targaryn crazy or she'd rise above it.

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So you knew she'd either go crazy or she wouldn't go crazy. Wow, how insightful.

Frenzied Wombat said:

I can't find the compilation now, but someone put together all the scenes over the years where either Dany or someone else foreshadowed her going crazy and burning everything. So if one could actually recall all those scenes, one shouldn't be surprised by her actions. What the writers fucked up though was decompressing and evolving her descent into lunacy, but since they tried to jam too much plot into too little time, it all comes off as jarring and unbelievable.

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yes, my complaint on ALL of it is just how poorly it went. it's like, hey, let's spend seasons upon seasons hinting and teasing things; letting things marinate properly, and then just throw it all into a bowl haphazardly and cook it at 600 degrees. that should turn out well, right?

Khane said:

So you knew she'd either go crazy or she wouldn't go crazy. Wow, how insightful.

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would it just make you happy to be right?

i'm really sorry the nuance of what i said is beyond you.